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Subject: Thoughts on BSW:Intrigue rss

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Branko K.
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I'm still trying to get the hand on what cards are actually good and what aren't.

For instance Swindler disappointed me. Too random and misfires too often. Switching opponent's Copper for Curse amuses me, but I somehow feel that Silver could be a better option.

I cannot make up my mind about Minion. Plenty of times I've had him destroy a great hand and exchange it for green crap, but on a few occasions it was the other way around. He's versatile, I give him that, but at 5 there often seems to be better options.

Baron - also an enigma. It was fun to buy a 3rd turn Province, if only for kicks. But he still makes me frustrated because I never know whether I need more Barons or less, should I buy Estates or not etc. Nevertheless, a very interesting card.

Upgrade - much better after I realized I can trash and NOT gain a card. For some reason I stupidly thought that if there's nothing to upgrade to then you cannot use it at all. I also like exchanging Estates for Villages/Silver (and wonder whether Baron really hates Upgrade that much or it's just my poor strategy). However, Upgrade rarely gets you Gold and can never get you Province, so I'm still at odds how good this card really is.

Finally - Nobles. Again, at odds. It's versatile as hell, works great in conjunction with itself as well as both +Action and +Card Kingdom cards, gives VP.. but it costs 6. And I like getting Gold. Aaargh,, so many choices.. (I guess mission accomplished for Intrigue ).

It doesn't help that BSW Dominion is now swarmed even more with people of extremely varied skill level and that hardly anyone tries to mix old and new but rather - and understandably enough - buys as many new cards as possible. This most probably results in a very skewed perspective on how good this cards really are. I've seen a player hoarding Nobles and losing magnificently.. in another game I hoarded Nobles and beat the other player to dust.

All in all, I'm sad that BSW will not get the entire Intrigue treatment, but I'm happy for this little taste at least. Can't wait for the actual copy to arrive!
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Myke Madsen
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Minion cuts both ways. I've had times where my opponent's Minion ruined a perfect hand... and I've had times where his Minion saved me.

I do agree that the five available cards (and the tendency to buy what's new and shiny) will really skew the perspective on the set in the short-term.
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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HappyProle wrote:
Minion cuts both ways. I've had times where my opponent's Minion ruined a perfect hand... and I've had times where his Minion saved me.

I do agree that the five available cards (and the tendency to buy what's new and shiny) will really skew the perspective on the set in the short-term.


Agreed on both counts. It's very satisfying to hear an opponent curse you roundly when you use your Minion to dump his 12-coin, 2-buy hand... and just as satisfying to be able to tell your opponent "Thanks" when his Minion lets you ditch a crap hand and get four better cards.

I also like combos such as Minion-Baron-Nobles-Estate-Estate. Nobles for +2 actions, Baron to trash an Estate for +4 coins, then Minion to trade in your remaining Estate for four new cards and still have an action.

Speaking of Nobles, they are very useful in multiples. Use one to get two actions, then the next to draw three cards. A Throne Room lets you do the same thing with one Nobles card. In all the games I played yesterday, Nobles were very popular. 2VP per at the end is not shabby either, and even if you're hit with a Swindler, you get gold out of it.

The one question I have is whether the Swindler is too cheap at a cost of 3 coins. Yes, there's a certain amount of hit-or-miss to it, but you get +2 coins regardless; you have a reasonable chance of cramping someone's deck and slowing down their plans; and worst case, you run through the supply decks faster, which can be important while you're slowing your opponents down. (Actually, worst case is having to replace curses with coppers after the curses run out, but that's not too terrible a situation.)

In any case, having all 5 of the Intrigue cards available is definitely a novelty and will wear off pretty soon. The "ooh, shiny" factor will definitely give way to real strategy development. I'd like to see BSW implement a feature that allows you to specify, from 0-5, how many Intrigue cards you want randomized into your set.
 
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Carc >> BSG
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I got two games in last night with the Minion, Baron and Swindler. Swindler can be nas-tee, and is another good way to mess with a Chapel deck. Every time the Minion was played I had a bit of apprehension as to which graphic was going to show up... the +2 or the hand swap. I saw a few good hands go bye-bye. The Swindler definitely made that game go faster, and I tried to prep for that by grabbing Duchies, but someone else had a better engine going while I was still ogling the new cards and my scheme fell flat.

 
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Morgan Dontanville
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I dislike the playing with the Minion (I've only played F2F). I like to make a decision with my turn before my turn comes up. I assess what I have ahead of time so that when it is my turn to go I am courteous enough to my fellow players not to waste their time trying to make a decision. With a Minion in play, I feel like I'm constantly deliberating, then scrapping my ideas over and over again to the point where I don't want to waste my time trying to make decisions.

It got to a point where I didn't bother looking at my cards until my turn came. I was conditioned to become inefficient. Very frustrating. With the Militia, you can plan which cards to ditch ahead of time if you need to, but there is no planning with the Minion. Blech!
 
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Myke Madsen
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sisteray wrote:
I dislike the playing with the Minion (I've only played F2F). I like to make a decision with my turn before my turn comes up. I assess what I have ahead of time so that when it is my turn to go I am courteous enough to my fellow players not to waste their time trying to make a decision. With a Minion in play, I feel like I'm constantly deliberating, then scrapping my ideas over and over again to the point where I don't want to waste my time trying to make decisions.

It got to a point where I didn't bother looking at my cards until my turn came. I was conditioned to become inefficient. Very frustrating. With the Militia, you can plan which cards to ditch ahead of time if you need to, but there is no planning with the Minion. Blech!


So I guess we know now which card you hated from playtesting.


ejcarter wrote:
The Swindler definitely made that game go faster, and I tried to prep for that by grabbing Duchies, but someone else had a better engine going while I was still ogling the new cards and my scheme fell flat.


The interesting thing about Swindler + Duchies is that Duchies are arguably the most Swindler-vulnerable cards.
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Loc Nguyen
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My favorite combo is Throne Room + Minion (First discard, second coin). You get two more actions out of it as well.

With Minion, they have to show a Moat before you choose your action.

I like Noble even without the 2VP.

Baron looks good, but I don't have a proper strategy for it yet.
 
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David desJardins
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Da L0C wrote:
With Minion, they have to show a Moat before you choose your action.


That seems wrong.
 
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Matthew M
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Da L0C wrote:
With Minion, they have to show a Moat before you choose your action.


That seems wrong.


It isn't.

All Reaction cards are resolved before the Attack card itself is resolved.

-MMM
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Branko K.
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ejcarter wrote:
Swindler can be nas-tee, and is another good way to mess with a Chapel deck.


What bugs me a little about Swindler is that it can not only just misfire but - like the Thief - it can backfire. In my last 3er there were 2 provinces left and it was my turn. I had 6 Coins and a Swindler. I played Swindler and to my utter dismay BOTH OPPONENTS DREW PROVINCE. Aargh.

Also, I take back somewhat what I said in another thread that I will probably never see Treasure cards get exhausted. In a 4er Swindler/Bureaucrat game it's not uncommon to see the Silver pile getting rather thin.
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Werner Bär
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Da L0C wrote:
With Minion, they have to show a Moat before you choose your action.

That seems wrong.

The designer ruled it this way:
donaldx wrote:
GregF wrote:
So the follow-up question: Do you have to reveal and resolve Secret Chamber before knowing whether the person playing Minion is using the attack option or the +2 Coins option? I'm sure there are situations where the decisions you make would differ.

Yes. "When another player plays an Attack card" is, precisely, when they put it on the table, before it does anything.
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Mat Nowak
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baba44713 wrote:
Upgrade - much better after I realized I can trash and NOT gain a card.

I thought that from the rules if you trash a card you have to gain a card costing 1 more than that trashed card. The only time you don't gain anything is when you trash something and there are no cards costing 1 more than that card (upgrading copper or curses, for example).

Quote:
Upgrade - Draw a card first. Then, you must trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing exactly 1 coin more than the trashed card. The gained card has to be a card in the Supply, and it goes into your discard pile. If there are no cards available for that cost, you do not get one (you still trashed a card though). If you do not have a card in your hand to trash, you neither trash nor gain a card. Card costs are affected by Bridge. Since Bridge affects the costs of the card you trash and the card you gain, in most cases the Bridge will have no net effect. But since cards cannot go below zero in cost, a Bridge played before an Upgrade would allow you to trash a Copper (cost of zero, even with the Bridge) and gain an Estate (cost of 1 as a result of the Bridge).

Emphasis mine. Because it forces you to upgrade something I find that extremely limiting and very dangerous especially when you have nothing left in hand and play it (forcing you to upgrade that card you just drew.)

Speaking of the Upgrade, there is one sentence above in the rule book that kind of confuses me: "If you do not have a card in your hand to trash, you neither trash nor gain a card." How likely is this to happen? Playing an Upgrade makes you draw a card, so you will be forced to upgrade that card if it is the only card in your hand. The only time you won't have anything to upgrade is if you've played all your action cards, depleted your deck, have nothing else in hand and then decided to play Upgrade - but what's the point in doing that? Is that even remotely possible? (Your deck has to be nothing but action cards and they all need to be played in the same turn..)
 
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Jon
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Mateui wrote:
The only time you won't have anything to upgrade is if you've played all your action cards, depleted your deck, have nothing else in hand and then decided to play Upgrade - but what's the point in doing that? Is that even remotely possible? (Your deck has to be nothing but action cards and they all need to be played in the same turn..)


You could have a deck with Black Market where you played your money before playing Upgrade.

Or you are playing a moneyless Remodel/Upgrade deck.
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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Mateui wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
Upgrade - much better after I realized I can trash and NOT gain a card.

I thought that from the rules if you trash a card you have to gain a card costing 1 more than that trashed card. The only time you don't gain anything is when you trash something and there are no cards costing 1 more than that card (upgrading copper or curses, for example).


That's true. I think Branko had been under the impression (as I had been originally) that if there was no card costing X+1, you could not trash a card costing X.

Quote:
Quote:
Upgrade - Draw a card first. Then, you must trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing exactly 1 coin more than the trashed card. The gained card has to be a card in the Supply, and it goes into your discard pile. If there are no cards available for that cost, you do not get one (you still trashed a card though). If you do not have a card in your hand to trash, you neither trash nor gain a card. Card costs are affected by Bridge. Since Bridge affects the costs of the card you trash and the card you gain, in most cases the Bridge will have no net effect. But since cards cannot go below zero in cost, a Bridge played before an Upgrade would allow you to trash a Copper (cost of zero, even with the Bridge) and gain an Estate (cost of 1 as a result of the Bridge).

Emphasis mine. Because it forces you to upgrade something I find that extremely limiting and very dangerous especially when you have nothing left in hand and play it (forcing you to upgrade that card you just drew.)

In that case, you might be better off not playing the Upgrade, no?
 
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Mat Nowak
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I encountered a BSW bug. Bureaucrat doesn't affect Nobles, but it should.
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Ryan O'Rourke
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Mateui wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
Upgrade - much better after I realized I can trash and NOT gain a card.

I thought that from the rules if you trash a card you have to gain a card costing 1 more than that trashed card. The only time you don't gain anything is when you trash something and there are no cards costing 1 more than that card (upgrading copper or curses, for example).


For sure on BSW you can trash a card without taking another +1 card. I learned this the hard way. I tried to upgrade a Province to another Province, because I didn't want to lose anything else from my hand. Little did I realize I would be trashing it. Fortunately I was ahead enough that I still won that game.
 
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Branko K.
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Golux13 wrote:

That's true. I think Branko had been under the impression (as I had been originally) that if there was no card costing X+1, you could not trash a card costing X.


Exactly. I thought that you can never upgrade Copper/Curses, because there are no cards costing 1.

Btw Upgrade can get pretty dangerous on BSW with its lack of Undo button. It's one of the few Action cards that can REALLY hurt you if you misclick.
 
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Wes Jones
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Speaking of misclicking, I just had a very unpleasant problem - clicking to buy my silver didn't seem to be registering, so I clicked again...and then again. And when the game finally started moving again, it bought me silver 3 turns in a row...which was rather distressing, since one of those turns I had 5 coins. cry

I hadn't realized any Intrigue was in the mix when I logged on, so it was a surprise to see Minion and Swindler. Minion seems useful, and Swindler seems annoying. Swindler just made the game kind of frustrating. I agree with comments that it's like the Thief - sometimes it works (almost too well), and sometimes it does nothing. I would certainly have bought a Moat to try to thwart it if they had been available...though I can only imagine how frustrating it will be to have them turn a top-decked Moat into a Chapel or something.
 
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Matt Tonks
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For what it's worth, I do not like Intrigue on BSW.

Don't get me wrong; I have already bought the Intrigue expansion & like it a lot better than the base game. But since there are only 5 Intrigue cards on BSW, the plays I've seen so far have been very skewed towards buying the new cards... which is understandable given the newness of them. It does mean that players are using deviations of the same strategy with them.

Until & if we get more of the Intrigue cards, ideally all of them, I do not think I will play Intrigue on BSW.

Cheers,

Matt...
 
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Branko K.
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hwango wrote:

I hadn't realized any Intrigue was in the mix when I logged on, so it was a surprise to see Minion and Swindler. Minion seems useful, and Swindler seems annoying. Swindler just made the game kind of frustrating. I agree with comments that it's like the Thief - sometimes it works (almost too well), and sometimes it does nothing. I would certainly have bought a Moat to try to thwart it if they had been available...though I can only imagine how frustrating it will be to have them turn a top-decked Moat into a Chapel or something.


My issue with the Swindler is that the only card I am *really* looking forward to hit is Copper, or perhaps Gardens if it is a Gardens game. With most of the other cards I am ambivalent for what I'll exchange it and occasionally - like in my Province example - it backfires and makes me feel like an idiot for playing it.

So lately I'm fond of taking one of them instead of Silver right away, then trying to make it work in the early game and then later on - unless I see a good way for it to counter opponent's specific strategy - I try to remodel/upgrade/trash it.




 
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