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Commands & Colors: Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Sequence of Warrior CC when charging rss

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Joel Schuster
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I'll be playing the first time tonight, going through the rules another time to make sure I got everything straight. I hope that I am grabbing most of the rules but now there is one thing that crossed my mind and I cannot seem to solve.

I read that movement happens first in whatever order I pick and then combat happens in whatever order I pick, also a mix of ranged combat and CC.

Now if I ordered some Warrior Infantry for a charge, move 2 hexes, then I must CC. Now I target the same and only adjacent unit to my warriors with another unit capable of ranged combat and I decide to roll them first. Now I roll a flag and that enemy unit acutally retreats. So now my warriors are without a target to do their forced CC but doing CC was a preliminary of the movement phase to be allowed to move 2 hexes at all.

So is this a valid move ? Even a common tactic ? Or is this not allowed at all, do I have to initiate CC with my warriors first ?

The same thing is thinkable with some other unit CCing the same enemy unit, so is there a special rule that forces warriors to resolve first during combat phase before they run out of targets ?

Sry if I overlooked that rule somewhere, thx for enlightening me
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brian
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You only have to check conditions at the time you order and move. If conditions change by the time the actual battle starts, you just leave them where they are. Nothing within the game dictates to you the order you must resolve battles. But for your own sake, you may wish to use the warriors first so the target units don't retreat from ranged attacks first.
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Joel Schuster
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Aha, thx alot for your help brian.

Without having played this game I figured you want your ranged attack to go through first sometimes, since ranged cannot be battled back and not be evaded. So basically you could harm or even kill a unit without having to fear reprisal at all. Of course there are other tactics as well, which you point out as an example.

I guess actually playing the game will change my impressions on tactics alot

Nevertheless it certainly helps to know that I can use warriors charge and still not battle necessarily, as a tactic.
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brian
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Umbratus wrote:
Without having played this game I figured you want your ranged attack to go through first sometimes, since ranged cannot be battled back and not be evaded. So basically you could harm or even kill a unit without having to fear reprisal at all. Of course there are other tactics as well, which you point out as an example.

And most often, you will probably want to do that. However, it is your option. Just pointing out there is no order, not giving strategy tips.
 
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Mont A.
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Great question, Joel.
 
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Joel Schuster
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Thx I just realized that this awesome combat sequence reference here has a note covering this issue as well: http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/40962

Note: Targets of Warrior combat may be eliminated or no longer adjacent when their sequence if resolved and this is legal. They do NOT have to resolve first.

There are alot of other helpful notes as well. It seems to cover the whole combat process pretty thorougly while maintaining a good overview and a clear structure.

I hope this will help us getting into the game tonight to a great deal.
Thanks to the author
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Kevin Duke
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Yes, picking the order of your attacks is an important part of the game, and creates some of the balance and tension, especially when mixed with the "MAY choose to ignore a flag" rule and evasion rules.

While you frequently may wish to 'soften up' a target with ranged fire fire-- trying to pick off a block and hope that it means your CC can eliminate the unit (and, thus, avoid the battle back roll against you), sometimes that back-fires. If a player realizes he is going to get hit badly by CC and your range-fire plink rolls a flag on him-- a flag he could choose to ignore-- he may just choose to NOT ignore it, retreat, and leave the CC's you set up blowing in the wind.
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Robert Hawkins
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kduke wrote:
Yes, picking the order of your attacks is an important part of the game, and creates some of the balance and tension, especially when mixed with the "MAY choose to ignore a flag" rule and evasion rules.

While you frequently may wish to 'soften up' a target with ranged fire fire-- trying to pick off a block and hope that it means your CC can eliminate the unit (and, thus, avoid the battle back roll against you), sometimes that back-fires. If a player realizes he is going to get hit badly by CC and your range-fire plink rolls a flag on him-- a flag he could choose to ignore-- he may just choose to NOT ignore it, retreat, and leave the CC's you set up blowing in the wind.


And this is the stuff that makes this game awesome!!!
 
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the scrub
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Umbratus wrote:
Thx I just realized that this awesome combat sequence reference here has a note covering this issue as well: http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/40962

Note: Targets of Warrior combat may be eliminated or no longer adjacent when their sequence if resolved and this is legal. They do NOT have to resolve first.

There are alot of other helpful notes as well. It seems to cover the whole combat process pretty thorougly while maintaining a good overview and a clear structure.

I hope this will help us getting into the game tonight to a great deal.
Thanks to the author


You're welcome! laugh
 
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Steve Duke
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Quote:
And this is the stuff that makes this game awesome!!!


this is the stuff that makes me CURSE this game.... unless I'm the one who can pull it off.
 
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Kevin Duke
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You know you love it!
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I'm finding over time that all games boil down to some gimmick, or "schtick" that you need to master in order to play well.

In CC:A it is almost always combat sequencing (although I'm finding myself playing more and more positionally also, as I mature with the system). In DBA, it is almost all geometry, and a tiny bit of sequencing. Other games will have other schtick. It's all down to what you like. Ultimately, schtick is what we're "schtuck" with because we ain't got real armies. After all is said and done, do you like the results?

CC:A for me = good. Seems to generate incredibly variable but historically plausible results over replays. I remain a bit puzzled over whether the game is decision-sensitive or not. Could you win just as often as before by making random, idiotic plays? If so, then that's not a good sign, and the players are then deluding themselves into thinking they're actually contributing in some vital way to the outcome.

I haven't tested that theory, but I suspect it is incorrect, as the combat sequencing seems to make a huge difference in damage dished out...

 
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Bill J
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broadsword wrote:
I remain a bit puzzled over whether the game is decision-sensitive or not. Could you win just as often as before by making random, idiotic plays?


I doubt it. As I play it, there are plenty of decisions to be made about card management, leader placement, retreat lanes, and combat order to keep my brain engaged.

On the other hand, I do recognize that if you just want to fight and roll dice, you can do that as well. In that instance, the outcome will be shaped by the balance of the scenario, the cards and the rolls of the dice.
 
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Sword of Gideon
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To clarify , what I mean about "decision-sensitve" is this: "Do good decisions lead you to win statistically more often than bad ones?"

We'd all like to think so, but I'd love to see a real analysis about whether that's the case. Maybe when I start my PH.D. in Stats....gulp
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Kevin Duke
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Well, I don't know about stats (Miquel is writing an article about that), but I'll wager any amount of money you care to that careful, thoughtful play will win out most of the time over bad decisions and almost all the time against "random, idiotic plays." The latter would include things like having light troops attack heavies in close combat, not using evade rules thoughtfully, playing cards at random and yadda yadda.

Yes, certainly, there is "luck" involved. Thank goodness (I don't much care for "I have strength 3, you have strength 2, so you are dead, always" games). But, while we may mutter about our card draws and curse or laugh at the die rolls, it's the THINKING that makes the game so good to play again and again.

Depending how fast they catch on, I think regular players quickly get over the "rush forward and attack with anything I can" style of play, because it's mostly a bad idea. If both players do it, anything can happen, but if one does it and the other one plays "smart," I put my money on "smart."

P.S. I don't think there's just one 'gimmick' to playing CCA, or we wouldn't keep playing it over and over. Combat sequencing is just one of the tools to use to play more effectively, but it's certainly not the only one, nor the ultimate one.
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Bill J
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broadsword wrote:
We'd all like to think so, but I'd love to see a real analysis about whether that's the case. Maybe when I start my PH.D. in Stats....gulp


It sounds like a fun dissertation project
On the other hand, it might not find a home in an academic journal
But, you could always publish your findings on BGG. I do! See link below [edit: for my findings on the Shogun Battle Tower behavior]:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/40090
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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As Kevin said, I am currently toying around with probabilities and CCA, and believe me, over a series of games long enough the best play will lead to victory. Not over a few battles, but well, that is what probability is about! BTW, some examples, when the probabilities are analyzed, are counter-intuitive...

I had played mostly solo, and this way it is not easy to draw conclusions. But this year I have been playing with my brother over VASSAL twice a week, and in most of the games (during the post-game analysis) we identify the mistake(s) that lead to the other army's victory. At the beginning they were mostly his mistakes, but he is learning quickly!

In a few, close battles, we both played well and the dice decided the outcome. And that's why we keep playing CCA, he plays Chess at a very high-level and therefore we NEVER play Chess...


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Hi, Kevin.

What I'm dying to know (if we frame it in terms of probability) is what your chances are if you make arbitrary, random moves, as opposed to deliberately losing ones. For instance, how much better at the game do I have be than, say, Miguel is, in order to be winning 80% of the games we play against each other? Can those kind of win/loss records even exist in this game? Etc, Etc, ....

By the way, if you could "crack" CC:A as a stats thesis, I'd wager the results would be very publishable, as CC:A is a laboratory in action for operations research, and economics, where you have a closed, two-market system.
 
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Miguel, could you fire me an email about what you are working on? I'm very curious to see the approach you are taking in CC:A's probability analysis. I'd like to know if there is a common decision-making process that leads to more wins than not.

Kevin, by random decisions, I mean am I wasting my time trying to squeak a bit better position, a bit better sequencing, etc? Or do you learn the game to a certain level, and thereafter, it is the dice that decide who wins?
 
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