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Subject: Supply through besieged friendly limited fortresses? rss

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Joshua Buergel
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coldbarca wrote:
Can a PC marker avoid political isolation by tracing to a legal supply source (friendly army, LN, unbesieged supply fortress) through a masked or besieged limited fortress? For example, can Royalist PC markers in Northern Wales trace to a supply source in the Midlands through Royalist Chester, even if Chester is masked or besieged by a Parliamentary force? (Assuming there are no other legal traces.)


Yes. 11.3 makes no mention of the presence of enemy forces during the trace rules.
 
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Jon
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I am not seeing anything to prevent it either.

I am guessing that there is enough political will in the masked/besieged area so as to allow a continuous line of support. Perhaps armies of that time period were not really capable of preventing such communication until they had exerted enough presence in a location to do so? That means taking that fortification and flipping that PC counter.
 
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Charles Vasey
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Capt_S wrote:
I am not seeing anything to prevent it either.

I am guessing that there is enough political will in the masked/besieged area so as to allow a continuous line of support. Perhaps armies of that time period were not really capable of preventing such communication until they had exerted enough presence in a location to do so? That means taking that fortification and flipping that PC counter.


Probably easier to cut the chain one side or the other of the fortress.
 
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Steve Rogers
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jbuergel wrote:
coldbarca wrote:
Can a PC marker avoid political isolation by tracing to a legal supply source (friendly army, LN, unbesieged supply fortress) through a masked or besieged limited fortress? For example, can Royalist PC markers in Northern Wales trace to a supply source in the Midlands through Royalist Chester, even if Chester is masked or besieged by a Parliamentary force? (Assuming there are no other legal traces.)


Yes. 11.3 makes no mention of the presence of enemy forces during the trace rules.


Under 14.2 "EFFECTS OF SIEGE" and "EFFECT OF MASKING" If the Fortress Space (Limited or Supply) is affected by either of these rules I assumed a garrisoned Army is disregarded during Political Isolation(because they are inside it).

Seeing as how enemy Armies can freely move through a Masked or Besieged space and the only response a garrisoned Army has is to Activate and combat the besiegers (See Garrisons); I fail to understand how the garrisoned Army in a Masked or Besieged Fortress can be used to prevent Political Isolation.
 
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Joshua Buergel
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epilgrim wrote:
jbuergel wrote:
coldbarca wrote:
Can a PC marker avoid political isolation by tracing to a legal supply source (friendly army, LN, unbesieged supply fortress) through a masked or besieged limited fortress? For example, can Royalist PC markers in Northern Wales trace to a supply source in the Midlands through Royalist Chester, even if Chester is masked or besieged by a Parliamentary force? (Assuming there are no other legal traces.)


Yes. 11.3 makes no mention of the presence of enemy forces during the trace rules.


Under 14.2 "EFFECTS OF SIEGE" and "EFFECT OF MASKING" If the Fortress Space (Limited or Supply) is affected by either of these rules I assumed a garrisoned Army is disregarded during Political Isolation(because they are inside it).

Seeing as how enemy Armies can freely move through a Masked or Besieged space and the only response a garrisoned Army has is to Activate and combat the besiegers (See Garrisons); I fail to understand how the garrisoned Army in a Masked or Besieged Fortress can be used to prevent Political Isolation.


14.2 prevents a Fortress from being used as a supply source, however, nothing in the rules prevents a trace through such an Area to a different supply source.
 
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Steve Rogers
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jbuergel wrote:
epilgrim wrote:
jbuergel wrote:
coldbarca wrote:
Can a PC marker avoid political isolation by tracing to a legal supply source (friendly army, LN, unbesieged supply fortress) through a masked or besieged limited fortress? For example, can Royalist PC markers in Northern Wales trace to a supply source in the Midlands through Royalist Chester, even if Chester is masked or besieged by a Parliamentary force? (Assuming there are no other legal traces.)


Yes. 11.3 makes no mention of the presence of enemy forces during the trace rules.


Under 14.2 "EFFECTS OF SIEGE" and "EFFECT OF MASKING" If the Fortress Space (Limited or Supply) is affected by either of these rules I assumed a garrisoned Army is disregarded during Political Isolation(because they are inside it).

Seeing as how enemy Armies can freely move through a Masked or Besieged space and the only response a garrisoned Army has is to Activate and combat the besiegers (See Garrisons); I fail to understand how the garrisoned Army in a Masked or Besieged Fortress can be used to prevent Political Isolation.


14.2 prevents a Fortress from being used as a supply source, however, nothing in the rules prevents a trace through such an Area to a different supply source.


Perhaps the word "supply" needs to be added to the effect of Siege/Masking when referring to Fortresses?

As written it can be interpreted that the act of Masking or Besieging any Fortress space makes any of them ineligible to trace through or to.
 
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Steve Rogers
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Based in part on a response in the "Local Notable Questions" thread it seems clear that as defined under 14.2 "EFFECTS OF SIEGE" and "EFFECTS OF MASKING" all Masked and Besieged Fortresses (LN, Limited and Supply) cannot be used to trace a chain of PC markers to a Supply Fortress, Local Notable or friendly Army as defined in 11.3.

The wording in 11.3 I believe is intended to define what you can trace back to and is not meant to create any exceptions or loopholes to the defined terms in 14.2

If a Masked or Besieged Fortress space cannot be used to prevent Political Isolation, I would conclude that a garrisoned Army in Masked or Besieged Fortress (Limited or Supply) cannot override the Masked or Siege status of the space to prevent Political Isolation. it is not stated as such in the rules, but It adds another level of strategy to the game IMO; if you want make your Fortresses harder to take, you potentially risk some of your hold over the surrounding areas.

While I find Masking unusual, it is very powerful in this game as I understand the rules. The difficulty here, at least from my own perspective, is that in many other CDG and area control games Masking is not considered and the act of sieging has no effect until it is successfully completed. Those systems are typically based on a regional scoring or victory point system that are very dependent on who controls key locations each turn making them frequent targets of siege.

UKC victory conditions are much more irrevocable due primarily to scope, scale and history; to win you must choke off the support of the oppenent by either netting their "prize", controlling nearly 2/3rd of the board or when the last turn comes around controlling a healthly majority of the economy and political support of the Kingdom.
 
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Jussi Perttila
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PC alone in are is enough to LOC. Can trace supply through. right.

but was that Army inside besieged fortress enough to be supplu source?

unled brigade no.because it is not army...but example Waller with 2 brigades in Oxford. And evil Charles with 4 brigades is siegeing/masking( effect is same?)

Can Waller be as supply source to avoid isolations?...or IS Waller army negated by being inside besieged/masked fortress?

I couldnt find answer....foreign language etc..+ 3-4 hours allready scanning these pages

 
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Charles Vasey
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redbirdie wrote:
PC alone in are is enough to LOC. Can trace supply through. right.

but was that Army inside besieged fortress enough to be supplu source?

unled brigade no.because it is not army...but example Waller with 2 brigades in Oxford. And evil Charles with 4 brigades is siegeing/masking( effect is same?)

Can Waller be as supply source to avoid isolations?...or IS Waller army negated by being inside besieged/masked fortress?

I couldnt find answer....foreign language etc..+ 3-4 hours allready scanning these pages



The Rules just state a friendly army will prevent isolation, but I propose that they need changing to "a friendly army which is not masked or besieged". This matter never arose in my playing since neither I nor my opponents let armies get bottled up by sieges.

This suggested change is not official until I've got agreement as my colleagues have played the game in cold blood more recently than I .
 
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