Al Johnson
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I love games that are rich in theme, and it is obvious that the game designer tried to incorporate a strong theme into this game. I highly commend him for this.

However, what I would like to see is a simple explanation of how Resource Prices, Share Prices, and Orders increase or decrease. I have tried with my simple mind to give an explanation of each location where transactions take place and an explanation of why prices and orders are changing. However, I doubt this is totally accurate. I would love a more clarifying explanation (where necessary and perhaps by the designer) of each description below. Don’t be concerned about correcting anything I’ve written; I am hardly an expert on supply and demand issues and realize I may be way off on some of my explanations.

Mercato - Represents a market place where goods are being bought, sold, or traded. Since any of those actions represent a demand, prices would increase.

Shipping Offices - Represent goods coming into the city; therefore since this represents an increase in supply the price goes down.

Docks - (This does not represent goods coming in; that happened at the Shipping Offices). Rather, this represents goods being bought at the dock. Therefore since the merchant buys them the price goes up (demand goes up, price goes up).

Guild Hall - 1. Represent orders for goods that require some of the 6 basic resources in the game; as such the demand for these resources increases and therefore the price increases. 2. Not sure why the share price would increase. 3. The orders would go down because it represents an order for that resource that has them been filled.

Shops - 1. The resource price goes up because while the merchant is selling to the shops at price X, the shop must sell at price X + profit. 2. Not sure why the share price would increase. 3. Orders are being filled so that order request goes down.

Stock Market - Share prices fluctuating makes sense since stock is being bought or sold. However, I am not sure why an increase of just 1 space for any amount bought and a drop of 2 for each one sold.

Anyway, those are my best guesses. I would love to explain this to enhance the theme as I teach it to others. I think this would bring the game more alive and help others have a better understanding of what is going on.

Any help would be appreciated.

Al
 
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George Heintzelman
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The easy way to remember it is that:

Random goods drive prices down, specific goods drive prices up.

I don't know that it is all that thematic. It feels very non-intuitive to me, the way the shops and guild hall work to drive prices up. Basically, putting aside the thief and trader's exchange power, every good cycled through will push that color up one step, net, overall. It makes for interesting market dynamics, though.

Stocks follow what you would think, more or less, in a market where investors are wary of pump-and-dump schemes being perpetrated on the market. I should mention, though, that a true stock market is rather anachronistic for 1400's Venice... wikipedia says the first trading was 1602, in the Dutch East India Company on the Amsterdam stock exchange.

Not to say that merchants didn't take interests in businesses, but there certainly was nothing like a modern-day stock exchange around then. Not that it hurts the game qua game...
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Frank DiLorenzo
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HI Al,

My comments on each below.
cheers,
Frank


Mercato - Represents a market place where goods are being bought, sold, or traded. Since any of those actions represent a demand, prices would increase.
DC - True indeed.

Shipping Offices - Represent goods coming into the city; therefore since this represents an increase in supply the price goes down.
DC - True again

Docks - (This does not represent goods coming in; that happened at the Shipping Offices). Rather, this represents goods being bought at the dock. Therefore since the merchant buys them the price goes up (demand goes up, price goes up).
DC - True again.

Guild Hall - 1. Represent orders for goods that require some of the 6 basic resources in the game; as such the demand for these resources increases and therefore the price increases. 2. Not sure why the share price would increase. 3. The orders would go down because it represents an order for that resource that has them been filled.
DC - Again true with 1 and 3. The reasoning behind the Share Price increasing is that the goods being used are associated with a particular Shop or Shops and signify that they are doing good business hence are an attractive stock to buy and thus worth a little more than before.

Shops - 1. The resource price goes up because while the merchant is selling to the shops at price X, the shop must sell at price X + profit. 2. Not sure why the share price would increase. 3. Orders are being filled so that order request goes down.
DC - Again True on 1 and 3. #2 is the same as the Guild Hall. Because business is being done at the shop, the share price increases in response to this being perceived as a business doing well, hence an attractive buy and worth a little more.

Stock Market - Share prices fluctuating makes sense since stock is being bought or sold. However, I am not sure why an increase of just 1 space for any amount bought and a drop of 2 for each one sold.
DC - 1 space to reflect a slight increase due to the increased interest in the stock, but not too great of an increase to deter further buying by others. A significant drop when selling however to reflect a sudden perception that a stock is being dumped hence the price must decrease markedly to reflect serious worry in the market about this business and yet at the same time entice new buyers to come back to it.

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Al Johnson
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Thanks to both of you for your input!

Also a personal note of thanks to Frank. It is good to see a designer responding to these questions. I purchased the game but have yet to make it to a game night to try it, but hopefully will soon. I have played what I could solo (just to get acquainted with the rules) and it seems like it will be awesome. Definitely multiple paths to victory which I like.

Congratulations on the game - I hope it sells a bunch!

Al
 
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Seth Jaffee
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What would have been great for this game is a bigger board, with information directly on the spaces indicating ho the space worked and what its effect on prices and share values is...

I'm thinking icons of some sort could have been used, and there's no reason why the board has to be so tiny (I guess it would have cost more for a dual fold board that is 2x the size).

I don't mind the smaller pegboards for the shops though because it's nice to have that in front of you. And the Pegs (rather than other counters) aren't a bad idea as they stay put - though it's a little annoying to move them several times a turn. Color coding the stripe (where the peg goes) on the share price (in addition to or instead of the peg) woulnd't have hurt - it is easy to look at the wrong peg and pay/get the wrong price when buying/selling.

Graphic design aside, so far (2 games) my friends and I have liked Masters of Venice pretty well. There was some confusion over where exactly the Thief could steal from (the same Dock you're buying from, or ANY dock space?), and whether you could use the Trader's ability to trade a cheap good for a more expensive one, then sell it (or vice versa - buy a cheap good, then trade it for an expensive one). But outside of that we think it seems like a pretty good game!
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Frank DiLorenzo
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To answer your questions Seth, the Thief can steal only from the Dock that he chooses to buy from. And the Trader can indeed trade a cheap good for an expensive one or vice versa. As long as you do not also purchase that expensive good, then you can indeed sell it.
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Seth Jaffee
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rnrgames wrote:
To answer your questions Seth, the Thief can steal only from the Dock that he chooses to buy from. And the Trader can indeed trade a cheap good for an expensive one or vice versa. As long as you do not also purchase that expensive good, then you can indeed sell it.

Thanks for those answers - we guessed wrong on Thief the first game and realized it must be wrong, and thus guessed right on game #2. The Trader thing wasn't clear to us, but it never really came up, as most people didn't want to sell cubes at the Mercator - they'd rather sell them at a Shop or use them to complete a Guild Order.

By the way, we loved the Guild Orders, and how each one had a name which was thematically appropriate to the items it required, etc. I didn't look at them all, but are the cube colors evenly distributed in that deck? I figure they must be.

- Seth
 
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Frank DiLorenzo
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The Guild order names were some flavor suggested and worked on by Russell, so credit to him for that nice touch. There is one triple order for each Resource. If I remember correctly, the rest are an evenly distributed mixture of two lumber and one resource and a not quite so even distribution of 1 lumber and 2 same or mixed resources.

cheers,
Frank

 
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Aaron Medvick
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Player Aids help in that fashion.

I will get Frank to post them on his website. Also working on Facebook for the games -- which we will post the aids there too.

The board in itself is hardly needed at times -- just a place to store the goods ultimately.. Rest of it , once you get going -- you do not need to worry about it. The dynamics of the game do not depend on the board -- moreso, the shops and the prices.
 
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Aaron Medvick
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Frank put the player aids on BGG -- they are beautiful.

Enjoy.
 
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Mark Jimenez
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sedjtroll wrote:
What would have been great for this game is a bigger board, with information directly on the spaces indicating ho the space worked and what its effect on prices and share values is...


Playing MoV two player, what we found immensely helpful was to print out small counters for each area (e.g. for Mercato: R [up arrow], for Shops: R [up arrow] S [up arrow] O [down arrow] Dividend, Stock Market gets 2 signs: Buy: S [up arrow] 1, Sell: S [2 down arrow] etc.).

We played 45 degrees to the same side of the board, and have the signs up on small counter sleds, which lay on each appropriate space. Prior to this I had to constantly flip through the rulebook, then after printing the player aid, back and forth with the player aid. With the signs, we were almost completely off the rulebook (needed it for end game mechanics). If I was playing this with more, I'd probably make signs on poles/stands so they can be read from different sides of the board - or maybe paint some tiny blank dice to put in the spaces.

Other things I'm considering that might help us:
* It might also help if the inner "non shared" buildings were colored or outlined or otherwise stood out compared to the "shared" outer buildings.

* I may create some small stickers to modify the shop boards. Below 5 Resource price, I might put "Raise Orders". After 100 Resource price put "Price Control! Goto 40". After 100 Stock Share price, put "Stock Split! Goto half".

Really enjoying this game two player. Doubt we'll ever play with more, but even with just two, we're finding it challenging and quite entertaining.
 
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