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Subject: With holding IPCs Illegal? rss

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Lawrence Gamehappy
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It has been of debate that withholding IPc moneys in Axis and Allies is illegal for the game ..Or should be revised in the Rules. An Example is when Brittan is so blasted by the Luftwaffe every turn when trying to build a fleet that Britain can never gain a sea to air superiority and survive to get off the island!! So the strategy is to hold all cash on one turn then on your second turn spend something like a combined 50plus dollars and boom! Instant fleet!!

To analyze the games correlation to reality. Is it not bending the reality to build fleets that take months/years to build in underground bunkers away from seaport bombings? Is this not what withholding the money represents? How would a rush build beyond the country’s’ normal production strength and GDP be possible? When say you only have a few ports that can only build one ship at a time. Should not unspent moneys be lost!

What do you think! whistle

Lawrence

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Robert Wesley
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First of ALL, then where's this "debate"? Secondly, and MOST importantly, then when if ever HAD "A&A" been directly LINK'd with "reality"?
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David Jackman
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Unspent money is not lost.
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Shane Is Board
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If you want to make it more rationally believable, consider each unspent IPC to be them using (withholding) the money to begin production on future units; when the battleships and such are built, those unused IPC's were "saved" to begin production earlier.

However, do we really need this justification of "reality"? Axis and Allies is about playing the whole of WWII in a relatively quick manner, with broad, sweeping strategy. Besides, if they couldn't save up all that money, how do you propose exactly that they build those expensive units?

If you want a variant (which I don't think the game needs, on a sidenote) then you could say that any unspent IPC's have to be put toward a future unit to have the money locked up in production; I'd rather not play that way, but perhaps that will be appealing to you.
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Steve Jones
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IPC = Industrial Production Certificates.

It is difficult for us Americans to distinguish between dollars (money) and the concept of IPCs. Because it looks like money and has a numerical value, we tend to think it behaves like money. We can put it in the bank and save it up for a rainy day.

Do you want the game to play like reality or do you want to play by the rules? The rules say nothing about saving your IPCs to be used on later turns. So, even the rules treat IPCs like money. If you want reality, then a house rule is in order, such as "Use it or lose it." So in that case you can't even save 2 IPCs at the end of your turn, you give it back to the "bank" for lack of a more appropriate term. Actually in economic terms that might be considered idle capacity or was it opportunity cost.

Since you brought this up, I would prefer the "Use it or lose it" method. Industrial Capacity is what it is. You can't let factories sit idle for a year and then "walla" have twice the production they are capable of the following year. That's just stupid.

Oh well, thanks should be given to the game creators for using something that looks like dollar bills to track industrial production capacity. It would have been wiser to just refer to where you are on the IPC chart and say you can produce war materials up to that capacity.

Good Luck.
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David Jackman
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Well, the first thing i would like to point out is that we could spend ALL day pointing out logical flaws in A&A. I do love a&a, and it has a great theme, but you cant play all of WWII in 3 hours without a whole lot of abstractions.

That said, playing this without being able to withhold money would detract from the game considerably. Also, its not to hard to consider how resources could be held over.

Lets take the example in which withholding IPCs is the most useful: Breaking a blockade. What does having units on the board actually represent? Is there only two states of a battleship (not built and undocked and ready for combat)?

If you were under a huge blockade, you wouldnt build all of your ships immediately and send them out to fight one by one. You would keep them drydocked or likewise protected or hidden until they could actually be of use. THIS is what withholding IPCs means to me. Its an abstraction anyway - withholding IPCs just represents something besides the obvious mechanical "its not built yet" idea.
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Lawrence Gamehappy
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Thanks Steve

And my apprecation to all the others commenting. I'm pleased in this thread most everyone got the point and spirit of my question. The other thread gained a lot of confusion and some animosity. I agree with you.

Plunking down does not seem to be in spirit of the laws of production. And docked hulls in port would have been targets of opportunity on germanys turn. And yes A&A is not close to reality when bombers fly across the atlantic on one tank of gas!

Yet I'm building a 8 Foot x 4 foot board variant and hoped there would be some creative ideas about bringing a variant closer to reality without turning the beauty of the MB board into Hex encouner complexity!

Much thanks
LAwrence
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Jason Weed
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View it as carry over production, stuff they are working on but hasn't been completed.
 
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Robert Moore
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Designer of the new version of the game made a passing reference to hoarding money as a normal legal move in the game. It was one of the 12 or so articles Wizards of the Coast featured pumping up support for the new game. He also made a bunch of comments about rule flaws fixed with the new edition.
 
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