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Subject: Paths of Glory recommendation for someone who doesn't seem to like wide appeal wargames. rss

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M·ANTONIVS·M·F·M·N
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At this moment in time Combat Commander: Pacific and Combat Commander: Europe are my favorite games. I'm also working my way through Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #1 through Advanced Squad Leader: Starter Kit #3 with dude163.

Even though the CC series games seem to have a fairly wide appeal as far as wargames go I absolutely can't stand Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42, Tide of Iron or Commands & Colors: Ancients system in any of it's various guises. They just aren't deep enough and/or lack enough chrome to keep me interested.

I am aware of how different Paths of Glory seems to be from any of these games. I really like the look of it but I was wondering if anyone who shares my taste for war games has any opinions on whether or not I should pick up Paths of Glory.

Thanks for taking the time.
 
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Robert Wilson
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You might want to give this thread a read TC

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/407011

I was wondering why you asked about POG ;p



It looks like a great game, but unfortunately I dont have time to learn or play a new game system ( it lists 480 minutes as play time)


If you want to play a monster game, perhaps we could get a campaign game of this going over the winter?

The Devil's Cauldron: The Battles for Arnhem and Nijmegen

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"Wide Appeal Wargames" - I like that phrase.

I have not tried PoG myself, but I too, once I returned to the hobby, was reluctant to go into WAWs (oddly enough, nearly all are Card Driven Point ot Point movement games).

Resistance was a lost cause and opportunity - the games are immensely satisfying.

That does not mean I play those exclusively - we have Wellington's Victory: Battle of Waterloo Game – June 18th, 1815 in progress while also playing Wellington.

I do have Pursuit of Glory, PoGs 'sequal' - it has more meat to it and perhaps is better history - from what I have heard - though we are too busy with other games to yet move towards playing it.

It helps if you pick a topic you like and then get yourself a WaW. One of our first was Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage, since we were old school Caesar: Epic Battle of Alesia fans, we took the plunge.
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LEUNG CHI KEUNG
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How about MMP's GD '42. It is #15 in Tactical Combat Series, and the rule has been updated to version 4.

I would also suggest Lock 'N Load series: Lock 'n Load: Band of Heroes to Lock 'n Load: Heroes of the Blitzkrieg or World at War: Eisenbach Gap
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TonyClifton wrote:
I am aware of how different Paths of Glory seems to be from any of these games. I really like the look of it but I was wondering if anyone who shares my taste for war games has any opinions on whether or not I should pick up Paths of Glory.

Thanks for taking the time.


Though it has Card-Driven events, and is to an extent more elegant/less cumbersome than "first generation" wargames (e.g. AH), Paths of Glory is a "proper" wargame, in terms of weight and/or chrome.

I haven't tried Combat Commander, but I'd say PoG is even less "wide appeal" that CC. You more or less have to be a wargamer to dig it.

One question you may want to ask is whether you like strategic-level games, since both CC and SL are tactical level, with squad/platoon sized units. PoG is theater/strategic level, with the smallest unit size (I believe) a corps.

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M·ANTONIVS·M·F·M·N
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I'm having a craving for a strategic .... and long ass game....I need something to hold me over till Sturm Europa! comes out.
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Kai Jensen
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I enjoy Paths of Glory quite a lot. I tried Pursuit of Glory, but it just didn't grab me in the same way for some reason.

I think part of the reason I like Paths Of Glory is that there are many times in the game when you have an agonizing choice to make with the cards you have. You need to get three things done, but any card you decide to use will only get two of them accomplished. I love the games with tough choices!

Paths is a game I would recommend having taught to you as opposed to reading the rules and working your way through it. The rulebook is fine, but there are so many nuances and options that I think this game is better served when taught by someone who already knows it.
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M·ANTONIVS·M·F·M·N
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I'll probably be the one teaching it ........I don't mind spending a long time learning a system......nice picture of Chad btw......does he know you use his HS grad picture as an avatar?
 
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David Brown
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I have both of these games and they are amoungst my favourites.

POG is one of the best games I have. It's long and at times a but gamey it's just feels right. And it has an excellent Vassal module. The last two times I've played this have been via Vassal and it's a perfect for that system
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Dan Owsen
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I also am not a fan of the lighter war game fare. While card driven games like POG are going to be a step above C&C Ancients in complexity, they are completely different styles of games form Combat Commander and ASL, so you just need to keep that in mind.

Paths of Glory is a good game. If you want to stay in WW2, you might also take a look at Shifting Sands. It's a pretty good CDG on the North Africa campaign.
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Anye Freer
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Try Twilight Struggle to see if you'd like Paths of Glory. PoG is more similar to that than most of the games you've suggested.

(I don't like simulation wargames that emphasize accuracy over fun...and I *love* PoG.)
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Todd Pytel
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TonyClifton wrote:
I am aware of how different Paths of Glory seems to be from any of these games. I really like the look of it but I was wondering if anyone who shares my taste for war games has any opinions on whether or not I should pick up Paths of Glory.

It's a tough comparison since the scale is so different. PoG is a high-level, strategic game and you're comparing it to a bunch of low-level tactical games. From your comments on the tactical games, I would say that you don't care much for abstraction - you want the details of the combat to be modelled directly in the game. From that perspective, PoG may not be a great fit.

However, you really can't avoid some level of abstraction at a strategic scale, since you simply can't model everything and still have a playable game. Much like you, I really don't care much for tactical games that abstract away a lot of detail - to me, the whole of draw of a tactical game in the first place is seeing all that detail. But in the same way, I don't mind it so much at the strategic level, because the decisions you're interested in at that scale really don't need all the low-level details to be interesting. I haven't played PoG myself, but I have played and very much enjoy other strategic-level CDG's like Hannibal: Rome vs. Carthage and Here I Stand. Perhaps you'd consider trying Hannibal first? Not only is it a lot more readily available than PoG, but its playing time is significantly shorter. That might make it a better candidate to test the waters with. It's also a fantastic game in its own right. If you like the way the CDG system works there, chances are good that you'll enjoy PoG as well.
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Todd Pytel
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dietevil wrote:
Try Twilight Struggle to see if you'd like Paths of Glory.

While I like TS too, it's a very stripped down CDG compared to some of the others out there. Since the OP seems to enjoy a significant level of detail in his games, TS wouldn't be my first pick for him.
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Andrea Olivieri
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Go for it (PoG) it's a great wargame. After one year i still play it and i enjoy every game.
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Железный комиссар
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tppytel wrote:
dietevil wrote:
Try Twilight Struggle to see if you'd like Paths of Glory.

While I like TS too, it's a very stripped down CDG compared to some of the others out there. Since the OP seems to enjoy a significant level of detail in his games, TS wouldn't be my first pick for him.


Indeed, I'm not sure PoG would be either. It has one of the slimmest rulebooks of any CDG out there. I almost wonder if something like Unhappy King Charles! might be a better candidate.

Of course, there's always Triumph of Chaos
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Mark Luta
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Since you asked for my opinion of Paths of Glory...I think it is a game for people who really like the mechanics of CDGs, though it is not run of the mill in that category. If, like me, you do not really like CDGs and they do not feel like fighting a war, then I suspect you will not like it much.

Here are the sort of things which kept me from thinking it has anything at all to do with WWI beyond some cards which list WWI-era events:

--As with most CDGs, the decision making trees are all wrong, and that is really significant in this. One often has to make a decision between conducting an offensive, or bringing an ally into the war for example, when usually that occurs in the opposite way--a successful offensive can encourage an ally to enter the war.

--There is significant card management in this game, it really helps for example to know how many times you will cycle through the early war cards, so the Allies will know whether they have to play the 'Lusitania' event or can play the ops and be sure of getting the card back before more cards are added to the deck. (I will say I like the mechanic of the Central Powers having to decide whether to play a card called 'Guns of August' which implies stepping up the war effort very early, in order for the Allies to play 'Rape of Belgium' and step up their war effort early--the Germans can choose to 'play nicer' and prevent the world reaction from hardening attitudes in the Western countries. This is far superiour to the situation in 'Twilight Struggle' which I will not play precisely because of the ability to 'pocket' cards, usually by the Soviet player because of the 'extra' China card--you end up with a historically ludicrous situation where the USSR can form Comecom and the Warsaw Pact without the West ever enacting the Marshall Plan and NATO, when each side should be reacting to the other.) In any event, in all games of this sort this just seems like reading one of those 'choose your own adventure' books and filling in the boxes, rather than choosing a strategic plan to follow.

--The 'supply' mechanics are absolutely ludicrous, the penalties for leaving a 'hole' in the front lines is a vast area can be 'surrounded' (such as central France, or Croatia), rendering the entire armies within useless. The idea of course is to never leave a 'hole' in the 'front line' but of course that itself is an abstraction.

--The 'frontlines' are equally ludicrous, WWII in the West featured parallel lines of trenches with massive concentrations of men and guns facing off across the no man's land between. In this game, the side on strategic defense wants to pull back away from the lines, to force the other side to use separate 'move' and 'attack' actions and burn more ops cards. You might vaguely think this is supposed to be in depth defenses and the additional preparations behind a major assault, but it is completely the opposite of the horrible attrition the armies exacted against each other.

--Since the Allies really have no interest in attacking during most of the game to win, there is a random choice periodically as to which front they must carry out an attack. While realistic to have governments directing the generals where and when to attack beyond player's control, it would be nice if there were actually some rational reason the Allies would attack (unless the game wants to imply the Allies should have just stood on the defensive and never made attacks from the trenches!).

As a result, to me this just not make me feel like I am making any decisions relevant to the strategic conduct of the Great War. But, to someone who does not find those issues bothersome, I expect Paths of Glory could be a fine game.
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M·ANTONIVS·M·F·M·N
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Well I bought it.......I'm almost done clipping it.......the Central Powers deck has been opened and looked through......admired the map...........read through the rules a few times........

I'm thinking this game will be awesome....but wow people really weren't joking about "exceptions"........how long till these become second nature? Do they seem self-evident when you play?

Can't wait to get this to the table

Thanks a million for all your input.
 
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David Brown
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To me this is a masterpiece of a game - I think it's had three reprints which speaks for itself.

It is a hard game to master and an experienced player will win every time.

I'd be interested how you find the game
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Kai Jensen
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So you took the plunge - good for you! On your first playing, just remember that it's a "learning game" and don't get too hung up on trying to play perfectly. That will come several (dozen) games later.

PoG is a great game and I hope you enjoy it. Heck - now I need to get mine out and play it again. Just when I was thinking of putting Empire of the Sun on the table...

TonyClifton wrote:
....nice picture of Chad btw......does he know you use his HS grad picture as an avatar?


It was his large, sad brown eyes that got me. Best pic ever taken of his pug mug. laugh
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David Brown
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Quote:
As with most CDGs, the decision making trees are all wrong, and that is really significant in this. One often has to make a decision between conducting an offensive, or bringing an ally into the war for example, when usually that occurs in the opposite way--a successful offensive can encourage an ally to enter the war.


That's a heck of a statment to make 'as with most CDGS....'

Regarding POG and bringing an ally into the war. This does work is the way the poster want's it to. The various allies are usually crap but you usually have to bring them in at some point or risk VP penalties. Hence, before you bring an ally into the war you generally have to grab the initiative from your opponant and conduct a successful offensive, thus 'encouraging' your ally into the war.
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Eric Brosius
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TonyClifton wrote:
I'm thinking this game will be awesome....but wow people really weren't joking about "exceptions"........how long till these become second nature? Do they seem self-evident when you play?


I've written a Teaching Guide to help people learn the game:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/26514
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Chris Heap Senhouse
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Eric's teaching guide is amazing! I used it to help me smooth over my knowledge of the rules, and I still keep a copy in my POG. I use it as a sort of checklist to keep by my side when I am teaching a new player. I am usually around to play during the summers on wargameroom.com. Email me if you want to try it out there someday...

Chris
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Scott
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I too would recommend Twilight Struggle. However, to answer your question, I think you would like Paths of Glory. It is a completely different type of wargame than what you have listed. But if you have an interest in strategy and WW1 or WW2, I think its a great game. PoG is not something I want to play everyday, it is much more epic in scale. Each decision is painful, and the game is very tense. In contrast to what you have listed it is strategic in nature, as opposed to the tactical nature of ASL. I currently own PoG, BtB, and hopefully in the near future, Pursuit of Glory. These games take a long time to play, and I wish I had more time to play them than I do. Time is my limiting factor nowadaysshake. At least I'm getting faster at playing ASL laugh. BTW this is the game that got me interested in the first World War.

Scott
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As a follow up to my last post, PoG is an easy game to learn in contrast to ASL. There are many exceptions, but most have be written on the map. The major downfall of this game is the rules are written poorly. I don't want to sound too harsh, because they are not that bad, but after getting used to the ASL style of rules I find many other games vague in explanation. I also find it harder to reference rules that I'm wanting to find. Overall its really just a minor gripe, and I wouldn't let it hinder your desire to get or learn the game. There are many aides to help learn the game.
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Still not on the table......work has been retarded and I just can't find the time this summer......I've read the crap outta the rulebook and the forums here......I'm even taking the game with me to work at night.

I was wondering if anyone knew of any podcasts about POG?

Any required reading sites about it?

I've never played and I'm in love with this one already.

 
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