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Subject: Family Growth Endgame rss

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Michael Link
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I played a 4 player game of Agricola (the first game for everyone in my group, including me).

In the last round, I had 4 clay hut rooms and 3 family members. I was also the starting player. I began by choosing the "Family Growth without room in your home" action (I was the only one with empty space in my hut, so I wanted to block this space). With my second action, I chose the plain-vanilla Family Growth action. This move was worth 6 VP at the cost of only 2 food at the endgame harvest.

However, closer reading of the rules and other posts has led me to believe that my first new family member would've had to use up the room. Then I would have had no space left in the hut for the second Family Growth action. I couldn't find this scenario explicitly stated, but I have a sinking feeling in my gut that I inadvertently cheated. Did I play this wrong?

Well, winning with an asterisk is better than losing anyday!
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Matthew Giglia
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Since it was your first game we can let that slide, but you're right, once the forth person is added to your four room house, you no longer have room in your house.

Next game you play with your friends, just explain what happened in the last game and the rule clarification this way when that situation comes up again everyone will know the correct rule.

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Fraser
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Back in the days when there were less maps we played every map back to back
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Ooh a little higher, now a bit to the left, a little more, a little more, just a bit more. Oooh yes, that's the spot!
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Correct, if there is an empty room "Family Growth without room" will take up that space and thus you would have no room left for your "Family Growth" without building an extra room.

The extension of this is if you have three rooms and four people (the four produced via "Family Growth without room" and you then later build a fourth room, the fourth family member will automatically move in and occupy that fourth room.
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Robert Schwartz
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Karlsen wrote:
Correct, if there is an empty room "Family Growth without room" will take up that space and thus you would have no room left for your "Family Growth" without building an extra room.

The extension of this is if you have three rooms and four people (the four produced via "Family Growth without room" and you then later build a fourth room, the fourth family member will automatically move in and occupy that fourth room.

...Oh, what the hell; it's a holiday.

Family members do not live in rooms. Your house is not a giant apartment complex. Your family members are not mysterious quantum particles that mutually prevent one another from occupying the same space simultaneously. These analogies do not serve to help people learn the game. They merely only serve to confuse and obfuscate. Stick to the facts.

The facts:

- When R is the size of your house; and
- When F is the size of your family;

Then the following statements apply:

1) R is greater than F: you may use Family Growth.
2) R is less than or equal to F: you may not use Family Growth.

That's it. This is true all of the time, all day, in every circumstance, whenever someone fumbles his or her family member in his or her hand and ponders the selection of an action. Barring of course exceptions, as explicitly detailed on various cards; Reed Hut, et al.

You'll notice that nowhere in this hysterically simple and monstrously blunt explanation of the functionality of Family Growth that there is no mention whatsoever of anyone taking up space, moving into rooms, building double bunks, renting summer condos, or any other absurdly confusing and utterly inapplicable comparisons to real life real estate issues. So please, please, I beg of you. Think of the newbies. Drop the analogies.
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Michael Link
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Thanks Robert, I like the algebraic example, always easier than a word problem.

By extension, had I used the generic family growth first so that R=4 and F=4 at that moment, I assume I would have been allowed to used the Family growth without room in your home action SECOND to legitimately raise my family to 5 members. I haven't found anything yet that prohibits taking two separate FG action spaces with two different family members in one turn as long as the hut size (i.e. R > F) is still met.

In this specific game situation, had I used the regular FG space 1st, the FGWRIYH would have definitely been taken by another player, as I was the only one with an empty room. Next game I probably will not extend my hut in the penultimate round unless there is no action worth more VP's since this tactic is disallowed.
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Mo Cassidy
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Not to be mean, but this is the third time this exact question has been asked in about as many weeks. I'm sure it's been asked a lot of times before that, too.
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Andreas Krüger
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fragilehalos wrote:
Since it was your first game we can let that slide, but you're right, once the forth person is added to your four room house, you no longer have room in your house.




Er... yes, but - the baby has not yet arrived at the house. I am not so sure wether it counts against the room limit or not. Does anyone have the rules at hand?
 
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Robert Schwartz
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theright555J wrote:
By extension, had I used the generic family growth first so that R=4 and F=4 at that moment, I assume I would have been allowed to used the Family growth without room in your home action SECOND to legitimately raise my family to 5 members. I haven't found anything yet that prohibits taking two separate FG action spaces with two different family members in one turn as long as the hut size (i.e. R > F) is still met.

That is precisely correct.

Quote:
In this specific game situation, had I used the regular FG space 1st, the FGWRIYH would have definitely been taken by another player, as I was the only one with an empty room. Next game I probably will not extend my hut in the penultimate round unless there is no action worth more VP's since this tactic is disallowed.

I maintained a similar stance for a while myself. Then I came upon an interesting exception. Let's say for example someone's already got Start Player for the upcoming round. Clearly, that person intends to grab Family Growth Without Room. So it's gone. Fine. Meanwhile, everybody else is merrily proceeding with their end-game steps: getting ready to renovate, fence, grab some livestock, slap down end-game occupations, whatever.

It is then that we notice that our farm is in fact capable of extending by one room. If we did so, we would then have the only farm in the game capable of doing a normal, boring Family Growth action. This means that we're *guaranteed* to grow our family the "usual" way. With our last action, even. And a minor improvement tag-along to boot!

I've been keeping an eye out for this situation, as it's an alternate means of growing one's family in the endgame. We tend to dismiss the regular Family Growth action since it's more restrictive. But if time and resources allot, it is arguably flat-out more efficient of an action.
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Harald Torvatn
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
fragilehalos wrote:
Since it was your first game we can let that slide, but you're right, once the forth person is added to your four room house, you no longer have room in your house.




Er... yes, but - the baby has not yet arrived at the house. I am not so sure wether it counts against the room limit or not. Does anyone have the rules at hand?


The rules says you can use family growth if you have fewer family memebers than rooms. They do not say anything about family members who do not count against this limit, so we must assume that all family members you have count, no matter where they are or how new they are.
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Robert Schwartz
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
Er... yes, but - the baby has not yet arrived at the house. I am not so sure wether it counts against the room limit or not.

I am so sure; and yes, it does.

Quote:
Does anyone have the rules at hand?

...

Quote:
B – FAMILY GROWTH

In Stage 2 (Rounds 5-7), the “after Family Growth, a Minor Improvement” (nach Familienzuwachs auch kleine Anschaffung) card becomes available. Players must have room for offspring in their hut before they can use this action – that is, they must have more rooms in their hut than they have family members. After Family Growth, the player may purchase a Minor Improvement (see page 9). The action card “Family growth even without a room in the hut or house” (Familienzuwachs auch ohne Platz in Hütte/Haus) becomes available in Stage 5 (Round 12 or 13). With this action, a player may grow their family without considering the number of rooms in their hut or house.

A player who chooses a “Family Growth” (Familienzuwachs) action
places the new family member, the offspring, on the Action space
(see Illustration, left).

In the Return home phase, the new family member is taken back to the house and placed in its room. If it doesn’t have its own room, it shares a room with another family member. Players who choose the Family Growth action will therefore have one additional (adult) family member to use from the following round. The new family member is not available for use in the round when it is produced – it must first grow up. Families are limited to 5 members. A player who already has 5 family members in play may not choose the “Family Growth” action.

As depicted, new family members created by Family Growth actions are family members for all purposes, including determining the size of your family.
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Andreas Krüger
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thx!
 
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Geoff Burkman
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Xaxyx wrote:
....we notice that our farm is in fact capable of extending by one room. If we did so, we would then have the only farm in the game capable of doing a normal, boring Family Growth action. This means that we're *guaranteed* to grow our family the "usual" way. With our last action, even. And a minor improvement tag-along to boot!
...
I've been keeping an eye out for this situation, as it's an alternate means of growing one's family in the endgame. We tend to dismiss the regular Family Growth action since it's more restrictive. But if time and resources allot, it is arguably flat-out more efficient of an action.


If I'm not mistaken, there will be an example of this sort of situation in my next 2-player session report, in which I renovated to stone, played the Mason to pop out a fifth stone room, and then turned around and used Family Growth + MI, all in one Round!
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