Recommend
7 
 Thumb up
 Hide
51 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: Diagnosing Analysis Paralysis rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: analysis [+] paralysis [+] [View All]
David C
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Poll
When do you determine a player has analysis paralysis?
10 seconds per turn
20 seconds per turn
30 seconds per turn
45 seconds per turn
1 minute per turn
1 minute 30 seconds per turn
2 minutes per turn
3 minutes per turn
50% more than the average player
100% more than the average player
200% more than the average player
      151 answers
Poll created by bippi


How do you diagnose a case of analysis paralysis? I hear it discussed, and everyone thinks they've encountered it, but have we really? I found this gem that says, "no, you haven't bippi":

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/537035

BUT, that said, we all have our relative expectations, and exceptions. Chess allows the whole game to change in a move, while playing a game of (insert 5-player game here), you should have most of your mind made-up when it comes to your turn anyway---and you're holding 4 players up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Hawaii
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm having a really hard time deciding on an answer to your poll...
24 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Fritz
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This thread might be a sign of an advanced case of AP:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/420350
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Tubb
United States
Fuquay Varina
NC
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
All the "X minutes per turn" choices depend on the game. For some games, 10 seconds is more than enough time to take your turn, but in some games a player moving quickly may take half an hour to finish his/her turn. And the max on your poll is only 3 minutes!
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CHAPEL
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When the rest of the table stares at you and yells "Go Idiot!"...You have AP.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David C
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Aarontu wrote:
All the "X minutes per turn" choices depend on the game. For some games, 10 seconds is more than enough time to take your turn, but in some games a player moving quickly may take half an hour to finish his/her turn. And the max on your poll is only 3 minutes!


Half an hour to finish a turn isn't a game, it's a way of life.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Tullsen
United States
VANCOUVER
WA
flag msg tools
designer
48 hour turnaround time for Prototypes!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Depends on the game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Delp
United States
Franklin
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bippi wrote:
Aarontu wrote:
All the "X minutes per turn" choices depend on the game. For some games, 10 seconds is more than enough time to take your turn, but in some games a player moving quickly may take half an hour to finish his/her turn. And the max on your poll is only 3 minutes!


Half an hour to finish a turn isn't a game, it's a way of life.


Amen brother.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian Klinck
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it's more about their time relative to their previous turns. The AP I've seen isn't an "every turn" thing, but a "this is a critical point in the game" thing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David C
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Howitzer_120mm wrote:
Depends on the game.


It's rough, because I couldn't make that into a poll very easily.

But, I have to agree. Say with Ave Ceasar... the list of move choices you could make anyway, are in your hand. So if you don't have it narrowed down to maybe at most 2 options by the time it's back to your turn, you deserve a swift kick in the groin for a turn longer than 2 minutes.

Whereas, in chess, a gamechanger could have just happened, and you do need 3 minutes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Benjamin
United States
Los Alamos
New Mexico
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From your Games Played it appears you are unaware of wargames. Turns are typically much longer than 'which of my 3 possible actions should I take' Euro game. Taking turns 'quickly' in wargames devolves into mindless counter-pushing.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
p55carroll
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Don't hang around, 'cause two's a crowd on my cloud, baby.
badge
If I were to hang my head, I'd miss all the rainbows. And I'd drown in raindrops instead.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bippi wrote:
you should have most of your mind made-up when it comes to your turn anyway---and you're holding 4 players up.


Holding them up from what? If they had something better to do, they wouldn't be sitting there playing a game.

Yeah, I know--nobody likes waiting for others; people are selfish and just want to get their own kicks. But it seems to me there's enough of a rat race in "real life" without people having to hurry through games too.

When you're in a rush, ask yourself what you're rushing toward.

Sorry--just thought I'd mention the flip side of AP.

As to the cure for AP, it's a chess clock or egg timer--if all the players can agree on max time per turn.

Diagnosing it? Nah--too subjective. Some people are more mercurial than others.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CHAPEL
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Patrick Carroll wrote:


Diagnosing it? Nah--too subjective. Some people are more mercurial than others.


In a four player game, if three players are telling you you're taking to long. Guess what, you're taking too long. It's really not that subjective.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David C
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Patrick Carroll wrote:
bippi wrote:
you should have most of your mind made-up when it comes to your turn anyway---and you're holding 4 players up.


Holding them up from what? If they had something better to do, they wouldn't be sitting there playing a game.
[/q]

Is sitting there watching a player trying to decide what to do for 3 minutes, really playing a game though?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leo Zappa
United States
Aliquippa
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RaffertyA wrote:
From your Games Played it appears you are unaware of wargames. Turns are typically much longer than 'which of my 3 possible actions should I take' Euro game. Taking turns 'quickly' in wargames devolves into mindless counter-pushing.


Agreed, and that's why I think the choices noting specific times (e.g. 1 minute per turn) are not useful in this poll. Only the last three choices (50%, 100%, 200% more) make sense to me and translate to any game genre - how long does a potential AP player take for a turn RELATIVE to other players playing that particular game. FWIW, I voted for 50% longer than the other players.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marshall P.
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
badge
There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My opinion is that most games have turns that require you to slow down and think thoroughly. Taking a long time on these turns isn't AP, it's playing well. However, the flip side is that many turns in many games should be able to be taken very quickly, sometimes almost automatically. AP is taking these turns slowly.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
MWChapel wrote:
In a four player game, if three players are telling you you're taking to long. Guess what, you're taking too long. It's really not that subjective.


While I agree, there is also a simpler choice: Stop caring. Stop caring how fast player make their moves or not. Enjoy the game, think about your next move, talk to your neighbor, ponder the day's events, noodle on a possible improvement to the game, whatever, and let the other chap make his decisions in the manner and time he feels best. If they take a long time, eh, they take a long time. It is no skin off your nose either way, and it is possibly a source of unexpected profit if your other activities work out well. Why begrudge them enjoying the game?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
B C Z
United States
Reston
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And though it's not stated, I think the poll is asking:

150% of all OTHER player's average turn
200% of all OTHER player's average turn
300% of all OTHER player's average turn

Otherwise the math if funky.

Note that there's a threshhold too...
if turns normally take 10 seconds, 30 seconds may not trigger AP anger, whereas 60 seconds might.
if turns normally take 30 minutes, even 40 minutes can trigger AP anger.

So there's a limit function that's very game dependant.

For me, the biggest complaint is when everyone else at the table seems entirely capable of doing 'what if' analysis during other player's turns, and then executing their plan, while an AP sufferer seems to need the board to enter a static state (the beginning of their turn) before they can start processing.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David C
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
MWChapel wrote:

In a four player game, if three players are telling you you're taking to long. Guess what, you're taking too long. It's really not that subjective.


1.) What if it's only one guy telling you you're taking too long?
2.) I'm a pretty passive guy, but I know 9/10 people I play with both
a) Don't want to have to yell at a guy that he's taking too long
b) Don't want to be yelled at for taking too long

--------------------------

Most of the games I like to play, at least in a group setting, I try to get off in less than 20 seconds for a turn. I feel if I make a stupid mistake because I was trying to do things too quickly, well, that's just part of the game as well.

Now the question is, is it better to be against someone that's at some times random in behavior, or is it better to be against someone really good, but has a tendency towards the paralysis? Lets go with a 10% of the time figure in both cases...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marshall P.
United States
Wichita
Kansas
flag msg tools
"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
badge
There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
clearclaw wrote:

While I agree, there is also a simpler choice: Stop caring. Stop caring how fast player make their moves or not. Enjoy the game, think about your next move, talk to your neighbor, ponder the day's events, noodle on a possible improvement to the game, whatever, and let the other chap make his decisions in the manner and time he feels best. If they take a long time, eh, they take a long time. It is no skin off your nose either way, and it is possibly a source of unexpected profit if your other activities work out well. Why begrudge them enjoying the game?


No. To put it in your langauge:

Enjoyment of game = # of interesting decisions / unit of playing time.

AP jacks up the denominator with no (or very little) effect on the numerator thus reducing my enjoyment of the game.

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David C
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
byronczimmer wrote:
And though it's not stated, I think the poll is asking:

150% of all OTHER player's average turn
200% of all OTHER player's average turn
300% of all OTHER player's average turn

Otherwise the math if funky.

Note that there's a threshhold too...
if turns normally take 10 seconds, 30 seconds may not trigger AP anger, whereas 60 seconds might.
if turns normally take 30 minutes, even 40 minutes can trigger AP anger.

So there's a limit function that's very game dependant.

For me, the biggest complaint is when everyone else at the table seems entirely capable of doing 'what if' analysis during other player's turns, and then executing their plan, while an AP sufferer seems to need the board to enter a static state (the beginning of their turn) before they can start processing.




Yeah, that does make the math a little funky. I was thinking if you had a 4 player game:
Player a - 1 minute
player b - 1 minute
player c - 1 minute
player d - 2 minutes

Player 'd' would be the 100% AP player.

I see your point though...The average though, including player d, is 1.2 minutes, and he's the 80% above average player.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Ferejohn
United States
Mountain View
California
flag msg tools
badge
Pitying fools as hard as I can...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
iklinck wrote:
I think it's more about their time relative to their previous turns. The AP I've seen isn't an "every turn" thing, but a "this is a critical point in the game" thing.


I don't think most people mind that though. Someone who needs time to think when something particularly critical is going on, that's fine. It's when someone takes a long time for every single move that drives me nuts. Like playing chess with someone who takes 3 minutes to make their first move.

It is particularly maddening to me when it is someone's first play of a complex game. Sometimes you just need to play a few games (or at least a few turns) to understand how the game works, and all this extra thinking time isn't going to help you play any better.

As for Clearclaw's "don't worry about it" comment, that's fine sometimes, but when you've invited some folks over to play Caylus on a weekday night and you're expecting the game to last 120-150 minutes, and it stretches to 4+ hours and you end up needing to give people rides across the city because public transportation has stopped running, it is pretty irritating...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CHAPEL
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bippi wrote:

2.) I'm a pretty passive guy, but I know 9/10 people I play with both
a) Don't want to have to yell at a guy that he's taking too long



You haven't played in MY groups.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Eldard
United States
Burke
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Aarontu wrote:
All the "X minutes per turn" choices depend on the game. For some games, 10 seconds is more than enough time to take your turn, but in some games a player moving quickly may take half an hour to finish his/her turn. And the max on your poll is only 3 minutes!


Exactly. AP isn't tied to a specific length of time; it's related to how much time player consumes before executing his/her turn.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Hinrickson
United States
St Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Although AP does bother me from time to time, wouldn't you rather play a competitive game with someone or just base that games funness on how fast you can complete it?

Another question, who is more annoying the AP guy or the guy who tries to dictate the games speed by telling everyone to hurry up and move with little to no regard for his on speed of play.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.