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Subject: Chapel trashing no cards rss

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Mike Bell
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Slightly odd question - chapel says "trash up to 4 cards". Can I choose zero cards?

You might want to do this to have spent an extra action before playing a conspirator. It seems like you should be able to do this but I can't find a clarification anywhere.
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Dave
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I don't see any problem with not trashing any cards. I would think if you had too it would say "trash 1 to 4 cards."
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Donald X.
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RockHawk wrote:
Slightly odd question - chapel says "trash up to 4 cards". Can I choose zero cards?

You might want to do this to have spent an extra action before playing a conspirator. It seems like you should be able to do this but I can't find a clarification anywhere.

Yes, "up to" includes zero.
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Kevin Brown
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dmcallahan wrote:
I don't see any problem with not trashing any cards. I would think if you had too it would say "trash 1 to 4 cards."


So, could I trash a negative number of cards?
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Tiago Nunes
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pilight wrote:
dmcallahan wrote:
I don't see any problem with not trashing any cards. I would think if you had too it would say "trash 1 to 4 cards."


So, could I trash a negative number of cards?


I believe it only uses natural numbers.
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David desJardins
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If you trash a fractional number of cards, your host will probably be upset that you're tearing his cards in half.
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Walt
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I think it says somewhere in the rules that you don't have to use all the powers of your cards. For example, if you have +2 buys, you don't have to buy three things.
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Joshua Githens
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Why would you bother playing it to trash zero cards, is there some other benefit of playing the chapel?

Unless there are new cards that reward you for playing cards on your turn.
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Mark McEvoy
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Tall_Walt wrote:
I think it says somewhere in the rules that you don't have to use all the powers of your cards. For example, if you have +2 buys, you don't have to buy three things.


Quite the opposite. You always have to use the powers of your cards.

Of course, all a +Buy card does is give you an additional right-to-buy. You HAVE to increase your number of available buys that turn. Of course, like all buys, including the one you get by default, you are not forced to make a purchase.


But don't start saying something dangerous like "you don't have to use all the powers of your cards." You do. You're never obligated to actually consume an action (not even the one you get by default), nor consume a buy (not even the one you get by default). But you are required to do everything a card instructs you to do (including increasing your number of available buys or actions).
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Dave G
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Helios180 wrote:
Why would you bother playing it to trash zero cards, is there some other benefit of playing the chapel?

Unless there are new cards that reward you for playing cards on your turn.


Sure. Say in a game with the base set you started your turn with Gold, Festival, Festival, Chapel, and Library. You want to play the chapel out of your hand so you can draw more cards with your library, but you certainly don't want to trash the gold.
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Branko K.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
I think it says somewhere in the rules that you don't have to use all the powers of your cards. For example, if you have +2 buys, you don't have to buy three things.


Nope, it doesn't say that. In fact, it says you MUST do all that you CAN do (page 3, 3rd paragraph if you want to check it out). So whenever in doubt, just add "If you can, you must" in front of each sentence on the card. Take Upgrade, for instance:

"Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly one more then the trashed card"

this REALLY reads:

"If you can, you must trash a card from your hand. If you can, you must gain a card costing exactly one more then the trashed card".

The only way you CANNOT trash a card is if you don't have any cards - if you do, you MUST trash one of them. Similarly, if there are cards available costing *exactly* one more, you MUST take one of them; if there aren't (if you trashed Copper for instance) then you cannot do the second part, so you can ignore it.

The +Buy you mentioned is just the "right" to buy more cards,. From the rules:

Quote:
+Buy - the player may buy additional card from the supply during the Buy phase from his turn."

As for the original question, the crucial part is "up to 4 cards", as folks already said. Still, a scenario where you need to play the Chapel but not trash any cards is really exotic. The mentioned "I have a lot of extra Actions and a Library but this Chapel is in the way" is the only feasible one, and I don't think I ever saw it in practice.


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Jon
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baba44713 wrote:
As for the original question, the crucial part is "up to 4 cards", as folks already said. Still, a scenario where you need to play the Chapel but not trash any cards is really exotic. The mentioned "I have a lot of extra Actions and a Library but this Chapel is in the way" is the only feasible one, and I don't think I ever saw it in practice.


The original question was not about Library:

RockHawk wrote:
You might want to do this to have spent an extra action before playing a conspirator.


I think we will need an official ruling on this because 0 is 'up to 4' if we consider the precident of cost never dropping below zero.
 
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David desJardins
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JonPrud wrote:
I think we will need an official ruling on this because 0 is 'up to 4' if we consider the precident of cost never dropping below zero.


I don't understand what the sentence means, but the answer to the question of whether the Chapel can trash zero cards is obviously yes.
 
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Brandon Richards
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Quote:
I think we will need an official ruling on this because 0 is 'up to 4' if we consider the precident of cost never dropping below zero.


The third post is from Donald himself.

Quote:
Yes, "up to" includes zero.


I don't know how much more "official" it can be.
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Jeff Wolfe
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JonPrud wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
As for the original question, the crucial part is "up to 4 cards", as folks already said. Still, a scenario where you need to play the Chapel but not trash any cards is really exotic. The mentioned "I have a lot of extra Actions and a Library but this Chapel is in the way" is the only feasible one, and I don't think I ever saw it in practice.


The original question was not about Library:

RockHawk wrote:
You might want to do this to have spent an extra action before playing a conspirator.



It can also come in handy for the Shanty Town.
 
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Jon
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filovirus wrote:
Quote:
I think we will need an official ruling on this because 0 is 'up to 4' if we consider the precident of cost never dropping below zero.


The third post is from Donald himself.

Quote:
Yes, "up to" includes zero.


I don't know how much more "official" it can be.


Oops. Then I recant my post. modest

I made the false assumption that because people were still arguing discussing the usage of the word 'may' that we hadn't heard from our sponsor.
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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JonPrud wrote:
RockHawk wrote:
You might want to do this to have spent an extra action before playing a conspirator.


I think we will need an official ruling on this because 0 is 'up to 4' if we consider the precident of cost never dropping below zero.


What kind of "official ruling" do you need? Whether playing a Chapel and trashing 0 cards counts as an action for purposes of the Conspirator? I'd say it does, based solely on a reading of the rules and the cards. It seems pretty simple to me.
 
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Tony Chen
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Helios180 wrote:
Why would you bother playing it to trash zero cards, is there some other benefit of playing the chapel?

Unless there are new cards that reward you for playing cards on your turn.
Library.
 
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Kevin Brown
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Golux13 wrote:
JonPrud wrote:
RockHawk wrote:
You might want to do this to have spent an extra action before playing a conspirator.


I think we will need an official ruling on this because 0 is 'up to 4' if we consider the precident of cost never dropping below zero.


What kind of "official ruling" do you need? Whether playing a Chapel and trashing 0 cards counts as an action for purposes of the Conspirator? I'd say it does, based solely on a reading of the rules and the cards. It seems pretty simple to me.


We need an official ruling on whether we can trash less than zero.
 
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Branko K.
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That would either involve picking up cards from the trash, or breaking the space-time continuum and ending all creation.
 
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Kirkwb
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pilight wrote:
Golux13 wrote:
JonPrud wrote:
RockHawk wrote:
You might want to do this to have spent an extra action before playing a conspirator.


I think we will need an official ruling on this because 0 is 'up to 4' if we consider the precident of cost never dropping below zero.


What kind of "official ruling" do you need? Whether playing a Chapel and trashing 0 cards counts as an action for purposes of the Conspirator? I'd say it does, based solely on a reading of the rules and the cards. It seems pretty simple to me.


We need an official ruling on whether we can trash less than zero.


You need to explain how exactly you would propose accomplishing that.
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Walt
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kirkwb wrote:
pilight wrote:
We need an official ruling on whether we can trash less than zero.

You need to explain how exactly you would propose accomplishing that.

Get the game's designer to publicly make a ruling here on BoardGameGeek?
 
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Branko K.
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Nah, you would never get an actual game designer to answer the questions over here. What a silly thought.
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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Tall_Walt wrote:
kirkwb wrote:
pilight wrote:
We need an official ruling on whether we can trash less than zero.

You need to explain how exactly you would propose accomplishing that.

Get the game's designer to publicly make a ruling here on BoardGameGeek?


I thought the question was about how you would trash less than zero cards. Are you suggesting there is anything in the rules or on the Chapel card that would enable a player to pull a card out of the trash pile? Is that what you want the designer to rule on? Because that seems like an absolutely ridiculous case of rules-lawyering sophistry.
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Dave G
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kirkwb wrote:
pilight wrote:
Golux13 wrote:
JonPrud wrote:
RockHawk wrote:
You might want to do this to have spent an extra action before playing a conspirator.


I think we will need an official ruling on this because 0 is 'up to 4' if we consider the precident of cost never dropping below zero.


What kind of "official ruling" do you need? Whether playing a Chapel and trashing 0 cards counts as an action for purposes of the Conspirator? I'd say it does, based solely on a reading of the rules and the cards. It seems pretty simple to me.


We need an official ruling on whether we can trash less than zero.


You need to explain how exactly you would propose accomplishing that.


I'm pretty sure the comment about trashing less than zero was a joke. I can only hope, anyway.
 
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