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Subject: Berserk: Do I have to attack after a roll? rss

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Jeremy Yoder
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With the berserk skill, if late in my turn I roll poorly, do I have to take a region if it's possible, even if I'd rather not? Or can I decide it was my final roll and place my remaining tokens on regions I own?
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Paul
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I think you have to attack. Other wise you get to peak at the result of the roll then make a move.
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Joseph Cochran
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Berserk (if I remember correctly: we played it and reread the rules at the time) lets you roll the die before you even decide where you're attacking so I would think that deciding not to attack is perfectly fine. I mean, most of the time you could cheese it and say that you unsuccessfully attacked that fortified thing over there, so I wouldn't expect the game to make you attack...
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Jeff Thornsen
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No, you don't have to take a region after seeing the result of the die roll. This may be useful for certain races (Orcs, Skeletons) where you only want to take regions with units in them, so if you roll too low, you aren't forced to take an empty region.
 
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Rob Keys
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Faranim wrote:
No, you don't have to take a region after seeing the result of the die roll. This may be useful for certain races (Orcs, Skeletons) where you only want to take regions with units in them, so if you roll too low, you aren't forced to take an empty region.


You might not have to take a specific region after you roll, but you do have to take something if you have enough tokens to do so. Berserk allows you to choose where you want to attack after rolling for reinforcements, but the attack still has to take place. If you roll and do not take any regions it would mean you were out of chits and that your attack was over.
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AngstAK wrote:
Faranim wrote:
No, you don't have to take a region after seeing the result of the die roll. This may be useful for certain races (Orcs, Skeletons) where you only want to take regions with units in them, so if you roll too low, you aren't forced to take an empty region.


You might not have to take a specific region after you roll, but you do have to take something if you have enough tokens to do so. Berserk allows you to choose where you want to attack after rolling for reinforcements, but the attack still has to take place. If you roll and do not take any regions it would mean you were out of chits and that your attack was over.


Right. You must attack something! If you cannot your turn is over.

Otherwise you could just sit there and keep rolling until you got 3 than say, "okay now I'm ready." That wouldn't fly.

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ideogram wrote:
That doesn't follow at all. The way I interpret is, you can choose to declare your turn over after rolling instead of attacking something. I don't like the idea that you might be forced to take something you didn't even want to attack.


Your choice is whether to roll and attack or not to roll and end your turn.

The rules state...."You may use the Reinforcement die before each of your conquests."

If you rolled, you already made the choice to make a conquest.
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ErikPeter Walker
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ideogram wrote:
That doesn't follow at all. The way I interpret is, you can choose to declare your turn over after rolling instead of attacking something. I don't like the idea that you might be forced to take something you didn't even want to attack.


Yeah, the two previous posts seemed not to have noticed that the original post implied he'd be ending his turn instead of attacking an undesirable space.

Like jsciv said, if your roll isn't high enough to take the desired region, you could just say "Oh hey, it's not high enough, so my turn ends." instead of picking a cheaper, less desirable space nearby. If no adjacent region is desirable, you wouldn't be rolling to attack in the first place.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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I don't think Berserk is meant to be a penalty, and since you normally can stop attacking at any time, I'd think you could decline to roll. If you do roll, nothing prevents you from selecting an attack that will fail, if one is available.
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Kent Reuber
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Small World rulebook ('Berserk' definition) wrote:
You may use the Reinforcement die before each of your conquests, rather than just the last one of your turn. Roll the die first; select the Region you wish to conquer; then place the required number of Race tokens (minus the die results) there. If you do not have enough tokens left, this is your final conquest attempt for the turn. As usual, a minimum of 1 token is still required to attempt the conquest.


So, my interpretation is:

1) You roll the die.
2) You then pick a Region you want to conquer. Nothing in the rules above say that the Region you pick must yield a successful conquest. It just says if you don't have enough units after subtracting your roll, that you can't make any more conquest attempts.

So, as an example with my interpretation:

I'm adjacent to two enemy regions, one with one unit (requiring 3 units to conquer) and one with two units (requiring 4 units to conquer). I only have 2 units in my hand. Let's say I really want to conquer the Region with two enemy units but I'd rather not conquer the Region with only one unit. I roll the die and the a "1" result. According to my interpretation, I could either:

1) Pick the Region with one unit and conquer it (since it needs 3 to conquer and my total is now 3), which I may not want to do for whatever reason.
2) Or, I can pick the Region with two units and be unable to conquer it (since I don't have a high enough total), allowing me to end my turn and use these two units in my hand as reinforcements.
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ideogram wrote:
We are talking about Berserk, not the normal reinforcement roll.


Yes, I understand what we're talking about. The Berserk roll is made before each attack, and I don't believe that anyone is ever required to initiate an attack.
 
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kentreuber wrote:
I roll the die and the a "1" result. According to my interpretation, I could either:

1) Pick the Region with one unit and conquer it (since it needs 3 to conquer and my total is now 3), which I may not want to do for whatever reason.
2) Or, I can pick the Region with two units and be unable to conquer it (since I don't have a high enough total), allowing me to end my turn and use these two units in my hand as reinforcements.


I agree that you can do that. I also think you could skip rolling the die entirely if you don't wish to conquer any region.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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If you are trying to take a territory that you don't have enough tokens for, then you roll the die and whether you roll high enough or not, your turn is over. The point is, you have to declare that this is your final conquest, and you have to declare a specific target of your conquest.

This is completely different from the Berserk power, which allows you to roll the die and then make a conquest. If you rolled the die, you have to make a conquest. You can't be forced into taking something you didn't want, because if you wanted something that you didn't have enough tokens for, you would have had to declare it a final conquest, in which case you would not have to take anything if you rolled low.
 
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Jeremy Yoder
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I see everyone has argued what my group argued as well -- good points on both sides. And the examples about Orcs and Skels is the scenerio that came up for us, which is why I posted the question.

As I see it, with Berserk, I don't think you should ever have to declare a final conquest.

So I lean toward what Kent and Sphere wrote: An attack must be made for all Berserk rolls, but there is nothing forcing it to be successful, so you can state you are attacking a stronger region. If you do, then it's your final roll and your attack phase is done -- you certainly would not be able to continually roll.

So that's how we'll play unless I hear a different "offical ruling".
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B C Z
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Rules say:

Quote:
Berserk
You may use the Reinforcement die before
each of your conquests, rather than just the
last one of your turn. Roll the die first; select
the Region you wish to conquer; then place
the required number of Race tokens (minus
the die results) there. If you do not have enough tokens left, this
is your final conquest attempt for the turn
. As usual, a minimum
of 1 token is still required to attempt the conquest.


Emphasis mine.

The act of rolling the die forces you to take over some region unless die + tokens is insufficient to conquer any territory.

Roll; select region; place -- it's all a sequence of a single conquest, and the act of rolling the die starts it. It only aborts if you have a single token, roll a '0' and there are no locations where a single token is sufficient.

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Jeremy Yoder
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I know what you're saying, but I disagree, though I'd like an official ruling.

It just seems very odd to me to be forced to conquer a region I have no desire to conquer, simply because I had a bad roll, which seems to go against the idea of what Berserk offers. For instance...

Say I'm Berserk, and by the end of my attacks I'm boxed in with 3 tokens left. The only enemy regions adjacent have 3 and 4 tokens on them. I hope for a 2 or 3 die roll, but roll 0. Oh wait... next to me are some of my declined races with only 1 token on each. By your interpretation, I have to attack one of them.

Sorry, but that's just goofy.
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Cameron McKenzie
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JYoder wrote:

I know what you're saying, but I disagree, though I'd like an official ruling.

It just seems very odd to me to be forced to conquer a region I have no desire to conquer, simply because I had a bad roll, which seems to go against the idea of what Berserk offers. For instance...

Say I'm Berserk, and by the end of my attacks I'm boxed in with 3 tokens left. The only enemy regions adjacent have 3 and 4 tokens on them. I hope for a 2 or 3 die roll, but roll 0. Oh wait... next to me are some of my declined races with only 1 token on each. By your interpretation, I have to attack one of them.

Sorry, but that's just goofy.


Like I said earlier... Declare that you are taking your final conquest. If you do that, then you are only eligible to take the territory which you declared, so you won't be forced into taking something you don't want.

It usually isn't necessary to "declare" a final conquest with Berserk since you always get the die, but that doesn't mean you CAN'T do so.
 
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Jeremy Yoder
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MasterDinadan wrote:
JYoder wrote:

I know what you're saying, but I disagree, though I'd like an official ruling.

It just seems very odd to me to be forced to conquer a region I have no desire to conquer, simply because I had a bad roll, which seems to go against the idea of what Berserk offers. For instance...

Say I'm Berserk, and by the end of my attacks I'm boxed in with 3 tokens left. The only enemy regions adjacent have 3 and 4 tokens on them. I hope for a 2 or 3 die roll, but roll 0. Oh wait... next to me are some of my declined races with only 1 token on each. By your interpretation, I have to attack one of them.

Sorry, but that's just goofy.


Like I said earlier... Declare that you are taking your final conquest. If you do that, then you are only eligible to take the territory which you declared, so you won't be forced into taking something you don't want.

It usually isn't necessary to "declare" a final conquest with Berserk since you always get the die, but that doesn't mean you CAN'T do so.

You could, but I'm saying you should never have to declare with Berserk to have to get around this issue. As in my example, I shouldn't have to say which final region I'm attempting to attack, because it will vary depending on my die roll, just as it always does for Berserk.

Not only that, but in another scenerio I may be able to keep attacking after "punching through" a region if I get a high roll, in which case it would be annoying to have declared a "final region" and forced to stop when I'm now in a position to keep attacking.

It just seems silly for a Berserk race to ever feel like they have to formally declare a final region to avoid "accidentally" conquering an adjacent region they don't want, especially if the die roll (for good or bad) would have enabled them to choose a different region, which is what Berserk is all about.


 
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Tony Chen
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I say you don't. But if you don't, you end your turn.
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Jan B.
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jsciv wrote:
Berserk (if I remember correctly: we played it and reread the rules at the time) lets you roll the die before you even decide where you're attacking so I would think that deciding not to attack is perfectly fine. I mean, most of the time you could cheese it and say that you unsuccessfully attacked that fortified thing over there, so I wouldn't expect the game to make you attack...


All those fuzz about the Berzerk ability while the correct and most reasonable answer was the 2nd reply of the topic...

Of course you can decide after the roll which region you're attacking and if you have not enough tokens for the region you decide to attack, your turn is over.

What's the deal with overcomplexing rules over here? Some people seem to play this game as a practice term of their law study. I subscribed to the feed of the Small World Forums, but I'm seriously considering to de-subscribe because all those ruling non-sense.

Sorry for the rant...
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Travis Cooper
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kent_bro wrote:
jsciv wrote:
Berserk (if I remember correctly: we played it and reread the rules at the time) lets you roll the die before you even decide where you're attacking so I would think that deciding not to attack is perfectly fine. I mean, most of the time you could cheese it and say that you unsuccessfully attacked that fortified thing over there, so I wouldn't expect the game to make you attack...


All those fuzz about the Berzerk ability while the correct and most reasonable answer was the 2nd reply of the topic...

Of course you can decide after the roll which region you're attacking and if you have not enough tokens for the region you decide to attack, your turn is over.

What's the deal with overcomplexing rules over here? Some people seem to play this game as a practice term of their law study. I subscribed to the feed of the Small World Forums, but I'm seriously considering to de-subscribe because all those ruling non-sense.

Sorry for the rant...


I second this. The rules to me are even very clear on the matter. Roll the die, chose a region and place your tokens, if you don't have enough tokens your turn is over. So if you don't have enough tokens for the region you really wanted, you aren't forced to take over another region that you didn't want.
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byronczimmer wrote:
Rules say:

Quote:
Berserk
You may use the Reinforcement die before
each of your conquests, rather than just the
last one of your turn. Roll the die first; select
the Region you wish to conquer; then place
the required number of Race tokens (minus
the die results) there. If you do not have enough tokens left, this
is your final conquest attempt for the turn
. As usual, a minimum
of 1 token is still required to attempt the conquest.


Emphasis mine.



You could bold a difference sentence just as easily:


Quote:
Berserk
You may use the Reinforcement die before
each of your conquests, rather than just the
last one of your turn. Roll the die first; select
the Region you wish to conquer
; then place
the required number of Race tokens (minus
the die results) there. If you do not have enough tokens left, this
is your final conquest attempt for the turn. As usual, a minimum
of 1 token is still required to attempt the conquest.



Note which comes first. The determination of whether you have enough tokens is subordinate to the selection of a region. What it does not say is that you must select a region where your attack will be successful.
 
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Tony Chen
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Sphere wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Rules say:

Quote:
Berserk
You may use the Reinforcement die before
each of your conquests, rather than just the
last one of your turn. Roll the die first; select
the Region you wish to conquer; then place
the required number of Race tokens (minus
the die results) there. If you do not have enough tokens left, this
is your final conquest attempt for the turn
. As usual, a minimum
of 1 token is still required to attempt the conquest.


Emphasis mine.



You could bold a difference sentence just as easily:


Quote:
Berserk
You may use the Reinforcement die before
each of your conquests, rather than just the
last one of your turn. Roll the die first; select
the Region you wish to conquer
; then place
the required number of Race tokens (minus
the die results) there. If you do not have enough tokens left, this
is your final conquest attempt for the turn. As usual, a minimum
of 1 token is still required to attempt the conquest.



Note which comes first. The determination of whether you have enough tokens is subordinate to the selection of a region. What it does not say is that you must select a region where your attack will be successful.

What is even funnier is that in the part that he bolded, it says "conquest attempt."
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Jeremy Yoder
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Hmm. Never had a thread where people grew so hostile to those with different takes.

Looks like the final concensus is how I suspected, but thanks to everyone for your input.
 
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JYoder wrote:
Hmm. Never had a thread where people grew so hostile to those with different takes.


Really? I must have missed it. Seemed to me like people were just arguing their points.
 
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