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A Most Dangerous Time: Japan in Chaos, 1570-1584» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about Ashikaga shogun.. rss

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Dae Young Kim
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What is exact Ashikaga Yoshiaki's diplomatic special ability?
Betray or negotiation target can be adjacent to his faction unit or his alliance unit?
What about normal leader who has diplomatic ability?
 
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Peter Vrabel
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All samurais*, Ashikaga included, can only negotiate with units that they are adjacent to, or are besiging.

Normal daimyos* can negotiate with any unit that is adjacent to, or being besiged by, any member of their alliance.

If Ashikaga becomes a daimyo, he may negotiate with any any unit that is adjacent to, or being besiged by, any member of their faction.

He maintains this ability even after being sent to the Tomo box.

*Assuming they have the negotiation ability.
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Dae Young Kim
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Thank you very much.
 
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Kevin Kwan
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Great summary, let me attach my betrayal and Ashikaga questions here:

1. Can a daimyo*'s betrayal/negotiation be effected via a besieged unit of their alliance? Since this friendly besieged unit is not "adjacent to" or "besieging" the target, I think the implied answer to my question is "no".

2. When Ashikaga becomes combat casualty, is it correct that he rolls for his fate like anyone else:
dead-->permanent elimination box,
wounded--> wait in turn track then return to map into Tomo.
15.1 only says "If Ashikaga becomes wounded in battle,he is placed in the Tomo box..."
If so, whenever Ashikaga becomes daimyo there is 2/3 chance he will be harassing Oda for the rest of the game.

3. By the way, the next sentence in 15.1 says "If he is a daimyo,..." Is it possible that when he gets involved in a battle (and thus get wounded) he is still a samurai in Kyo and not yet a daimyo?

4. Ashikaga supply: 15.1 do not contain Ashikaga special supply rules as 5.2 promised. I recall Adam said when Ashikaga is a daimyo, his units trace LOC from any friendly faction home castles, like any other clans that does not have home castles.
What is the rule when he is a samurai? My guess is his units are exempt from LOC rules and are considered always in communication. My reasoning is that while a samurai, his whole clan may consist of a few soldiers he negotiated with, who would all be close to Kyo. It is unlikely to successfully link to a friendly faction home castle.

5. Original ("Optional") Regroup Rule, especially as applied to Ashikaga clan:
Does the grouping (count separately for non-LOC-linked areas like Ishiyama/Nagashima/Kaga) concept apply to all clans when using the original rule? Ashikaga clan, being acquired from negotiation/betrayal of anyone adjacent to any anti-Oda faction units, is likely to be dispersed in tons of 1-space (non-LOC-linked) groupings all over the map. The grouping concept will let Ashikaga regroup virtually all combat losses every turn.

Thanks!
 
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Adam Starkweather
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Quote:
1. Can a daimyo*'s betrayal/negotiation be effected via a besieged unit of their alliance? Since this friendly besieged unit is not "adjacent to" or "besieging" the target, I think the implied answer to my question is "no".


I am sorry. I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase?

Quote:
2. When Ashikaga becomes combat casualty, is it correct that he rolls for his fate like anyone else:
dead-->permanent elimination box,
wounded--> wait in turn track then return to map into Tomo.
15.1 only says "If Ashikaga becomes wounded in battle,he is placed in the Tomo box..."
If so, whenever Ashikaga becomes daimyo there is 2/3 chance he will be harassing Oda for the rest of the game.


This is correct but I am almost certainly changing this to be that he is affected like anyone else. I am waiting for data on it but if you want to play with this modification and let me know, that would be great.

Quote:
3. By the way, the next sentence in 15.1 says "If he is a daimyo,..." Is it possible that when he gets involved in a battle (and thus get wounded) he is still a samurai in Kyo and not yet a daimyo?


I am sorry - I don't follow what part of 15.1 you are citing.

Quote:
4. Ashikaga supply: 15.1 do not contain Ashikaga special supply rules as 5.2 promised. I recall Adam said when Ashikaga is a daimyo, his units trace LOC from any friendly faction home castles, like any other clans that does not have home castles.
What is the rule when he is a samurai? My guess is his units are exempt from LOC rules and are considered always in communication. My reasoning is that while a samurai, his whole clan may consist of a few soldiers he negotiated with, who would all be close to Kyo. It is unlikely to successfully link to a friendly faction home castle.


He traces like any other clan without a home castle - Samurai side or Daimyo side. Has to trace to a friendly faction home castle.

Quote:
5. Original ("Optional") Regroup Rule, especially as applied to Ashikaga clan:
Does the grouping (count separately for non-LOC-linked areas like Ishiyama/Nagashima/Kaga) concept apply to all clans when using the original rule? Ashikaga clan, being acquired from negotiation/betrayal of anyone adjacent to any anti-Oda faction units, is likely to be dispersed in tons of 1-space (non-LOC-linked) groupings all over the map. The grouping concept will let Ashikaga regroup virtually all combat losses every turn.


Nope. They get one joined LOC group and only one.
 
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Kevin Kwan
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adamant wrote:
Quote:
1. Can a daimyo*'s betrayal/negotiation be effected via a besieged unit of their alliance? Since this friendly besieged unit is not "adjacent to" or "besieging" the target, I think the implied answer to my question is "no".


I am sorry. I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase?


Sorry, wrote too much. Let me put the question in 2 parts:

1a. 8.2 says a daimyo's betrayal target "can be any enemy or neutral leader that is adjacent to any friendly alliance units or under siege by friendly alliance units". Can this friendly alliance unit be one that is currently under siege? (Assume that the daimyo has diplomatic ability and is not under siege himself.)

1b. Does the answer from 1a applies to negotiations?


adamant wrote:
2. This is correct but I am almost certainly changing this to be that he is affected like anyone else. I am waiting for data on it but if you want to play with this modification and let me know, that would be great.


May I clarify what we are saying? In my question 2, I described:

(a) What the rule literally says:
15.1 only says "If Ashikaga becomes wounded in battle,he is placed in the Tomo box..." Meaning that--
When Ashikaga becomes combat casualty, he does NOT rolls for his fate, and go into Tomo immediately.
Implication is that once Ashikaga becomes daimyo, he is immortal and will always harass Oda for the rest of the game.

(b) My personal interpretation of the rules:
Since 10.3.5 did not say Ashikaga is exempt from the leader fate roll, I thought this is how it would work in Ashikaga daimyo's case--
When Ashikaga becomes combat casualty, he rolls for his fate like anyone else:
dead--> permanent elimination box,
wounded--> wait in turn track then return to map into Tomo.
Implication is that whenever Ashikaga becomes daimyo, assuming that Oda always hunt him down, since 1-4 on the fate die roll are "wounded" results, there is 2/3 chance he will be harassing Oda for the rest of the game.

I believe you answer is that (a) is the current rule, but you are almost certainly changing this to be (b). Am I right?

My data? Well, I played with (b), Ashikaga made daimyo in turn 14, became combat casualty, survived, and from Tomo made general Takigawa and clans Hosokawa, Matsunaga, Hatakeyama betrayed since. Major pain in Nobunaga's rear, who deeply regreted not exiling him (for fear of early entry of the reinforcing clans).


3. Re-ask--Is there any situation that will get Ashikaga involved in a battle while he is still a samurai (immobile in Kyo) and not yet a daimyo?


adamant wrote:
5. Nope. They get one joined LOC group and only one.


That means, for any clan other than Ikko-Ikki, if its territory got broken into more than one (non-LOC-linked) groupings, only one of these groupings can perform regrouping in any given turn, owner's choice of which grouping (In fact, for any clan that has one home castle, there is no choice--only the grouping that has LOC to the home castle is eligible to receive regrouping units).

Specifically, the clan's regroup number for that turn is determined by the number of spaces in the chosen grouping only (ignore spaces controlled in other (non-LOC-linked) groupings), and regrouped units can only enter via spaces in the chosen grouping.

Am I clarifying correctly?


6. Following up Q5 and my discussion about Tokugawa's regrouping base in another thread. The definition for a grouping is that it is non-LOC-linked to any other groupings of the same clan, right? In other words, all spaces that can be linked by LOC is one grouping.

Example: if Tokugawa control 5 space in his normal area plus Sawayama in Omi, and LoC can be linked through the Oda territories in Mino and Owari, then he has 1 grouping of 6 spaces, which allow him to regroup 2 units each turn, correct? Also, he will stop receiving regroup units when he has 12 units on map.


Thank you so much Adam!
 
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Adam Starkweather
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Let's see:

1 - Units or leaders under siege may not use their diplomacy at all.

2 - You have Ashikaga right.

3 - Ashikaga may not be attacked while a Samurai.

4 - You have the non-Ikki-Ikko regroup rule right.

 
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Kevin Kwan
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I am glad I got it all correct this time!

More questions for you coming thru the main rules thread!

Also, looking forward to your answer to my posting to thread #430299 "Movement whilst Besieged and other questions"

On CSW you said you expect to release a revised version of the rulebook soon, so we should ask you all our questions asap, in case some points are worth including in the rulebook?

Many thanks!
 
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