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Subject: Provinces as Soon as Possible? rss

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Isaak
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Let's say you're on your third hand draw, and by some combo and luck, get 8 coin. Do you buy a Province right then, knowing it might not happen again soon and to grab it while you can, or do you invest in cards to get a sweet hand toward the end and keep the clutter to a minimum?
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Branko K.
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You buy a Province. Not because it's optimal, but because you can tell afterwards how you bought a Province in your 3rd turn.

Seriously, how often do you think THAT happens?
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Byron Grimes
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It really depends on what's available. If remodel is in, then gold or the adventurer is just as good if it's available. And those might do you more good in the long run.
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Clement Tey
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blackthorne1978 wrote:
It really depends on what's available. If remodel is in, then gold or the adventurer is just as good if it's available. And those might do you more good in the long run.

Yup, it depends on what's available and what your strategy is.
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Jordan Booth
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baba44713 wrote:
You buy a Province. Not because it's optimal, but because you can tell afterwards how you bought a Province in your 3rd turn.

Seriously, how often do you think THAT happens?


Quite likely if your first two buys are Shanty Town and Coppersmith. I did it twice last night out of five games.
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Michael Link
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Much easier to have this happen with Intrigue. I played about 5 games on BSW (yes, intrigue is now on BSW!!) and achieved this in 3 of those games. I bought the province every time.

I didn't go on to win every time, but that was mainly because I was so enamored with the new kingdom cards that I bought too many actions I'm not practicing what I usually preach!
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Pieter
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crunchduck wrote:
Let's say you're on your third hand draw, and by some combo and luck, get 8 coin. Do you buy a Province right then, knowing it might not happen again soon and to grab it while you can, or do you invest in cards to get a sweet hand toward the end and keep the clutter to a minimum?

While it depends on the available cards, on the third draw I would, in general, prefer a Gold over a Province. A Gold translates to more future Provinces, a Province to less.
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Peter Clinch
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theright555J wrote:
yes, intrigue is now on BSW!


I thought it was just a limited selection? (5 cards from memory)
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Branko K.
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theright555J wrote:
Much easier to have this happen with Intrigue. I played about 5 games on BSW (yes, intrigue is now on BSW!!) and achieved this in 3 of those games. I bought the province every time.


Highly unlikely.

On BSW you only have Swindler, Baron, Minion, Upgrade and Nobles. Only the first four you can buy in the first two turns, and only Baron will give you a Province - IF you had a Silver/Baron opening AND your third hand is 2,1,1,Estate,Baron.

So please elaborate how the hell did you succeed in getting a third turn Province in your 3 out of 5 BSW games, because I'd like to acquire that skill myself. Thanks.

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Vince Herman
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Whether your first Province opportunity comes along on the third turn, or some turn after that, you need to evaluate your position. Early in the game, it is almost always better to concentrate on deck improvement. The switch to Province acquisition typically comes later.
I beat a fair number of opponents because they buy provinces too early, and I spend more time improving my deck, while they are now less efficient because of the dead card.
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David desJardins
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crunchduck wrote:
Let's say you're on your third hand draw, and by some combo and luck, get 8 coin. Do you buy a Province right then, knowing it might not happen again soon and to grab it while you can, or do you invest in cards to get a sweet hand toward the end and keep the clutter to a minimum?


Definitely Gold, or something else. No way a Province makes sense at this point.
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Drew Spencer
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baba44713 wrote:
You buy a Province. Not because it's optimal, but because you can tell afterwards how you bought a Province in your 3rd turn.

Seriously, how often do you think THAT happens?


This actually happened to me once on BSW. Smithy + Silver on first two turns. Turn 3 I could get a Province. I knew it was probably a bad idea, but I just couldn't turn it down.
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Travis Cooper
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banyan wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
You buy a Province. Not because it's optimal, but because you can tell afterwards how you bought a Province in your 3rd turn.

Seriously, how often do you think THAT happens?


This actually happened to me once on BSW. Smithy + Silver on first two turns. Turn 3 I could get a Province. I knew it was probably a bad idea, but I just couldn't turn it down.


I've run into the same situation several times. Now I normally just skip on the smithy early because it's just too hard to turn down that province.
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Dave G
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No way. I never buy a province before I'm satisfied with the amount of buying power I have in my deck. I would much rather have a turn 3 gold than a turn 3 province anyway.
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Mat Nowak
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Buying an early Province may be advantageous if lots of Swindlers are being played. You'll have an early Province lead and if it gets swindled that's one less Province for the other players to be able to pick up.
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Michael Link
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baba44713 wrote:
theright555J wrote:
Much easier to have this happen with Intrigue. I played about 5 games on BSW (yes, intrigue is now on BSW!!) and achieved this in 3 of those games. I bought the province every time.


Highly unlikely.

On BSW you only have Swindler, Baron, Minion, Upgrade and Nobles. Only the first four you can buy in the first two turns, and only Baron will give you a Province - IF you had a Silver/Baron opening AND your third hand is 2,1,1,Estate,Baron.

So please elaborate how the hell did you succeed in getting a third turn Province in your 3 out of 5 BSW games, because I'd like to acquire that skill myself. Thanks.



Actually, you nailed it. The baron was available in each of those games and I opened Baron/Silver each time.
 
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Joseph
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theright555J wrote:
baba44713 wrote:
theright555J wrote:
Much easier to have this happen with Intrigue. I played about 5 games on BSW (yes, intrigue is now on BSW!!) and achieved this in 3 of those games. I bought the province every time.


Highly unlikely.

On BSW you only have Swindler, Baron, Minion, Upgrade and Nobles. Only the first four you can buy in the first two turns, and only Baron will give you a Province - IF you had a Silver/Baron opening AND your third hand is 2,1,1,Estate,Baron.

So please elaborate how the hell did you succeed in getting a third turn Province in your 3 out of 5 BSW games, because I'd like to acquire that skill myself. Thanks.



Actually, you nailed it. The baron was available in each of those games and I opened Baron/Silver each time.


I've hit this a few times as well
 
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David desJardins
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theright555J wrote:
Actually, you nailed it. The baron was available in each of those games and I opened Baron/Silver each time.


If you played the Baron, you have two buys. To use $8 to buy a Province on turn 3, if you have only one buy, is inferior. To use $8 to buy a Province on turn 3, if you have two buys, is insane.
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Michael Link
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David, you're probably right as I'm a relative noob at Dominion and I'm convinced from your prior posts that you are an expert

However, with small deck size at the outset of the game I'm not sure adding another VP card (i.e. province) is that much of a drag. And with Baron, 3 estates, and 9 coin in the deck at this point, getting reasonable draws into the 4-6 coin range in the next several turns is highly likely. This allows for purchase of more coin and deck cyclers, and quickly more provinces.

When I buy an early province, the usual outcome is that I am up 2 or even 3 provinces to zero and my opponent is still building an engine. The intrigue cards (even the paltry 5 offered on BSW) really allow for improved deck cycling which makes the concept of early, aggressive VP buying--a strategy that works quite well in the base game--even more attractive.

I really love adding a remodel to this, getting up to 3 provinces, and then starting to trash them devil
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Chris Martin
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You want to buy Provinces at some point anyway, so the Province buy isn't a wasted turn as such. The problem is that it slows your deck down. Let's say that it slows you down by a whole two turns while you restock. These two turns at the end of the game are turns where you may or may not have been able to buy a Province. If it's a four-player game, you just made a third of the Province buys you need to get your fair share of Provinces, and you're only three turns into the game. All in all, I don't think that buying a turn three Province is as unconscionable as everyone is making out.
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Matt N

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theright555J wrote:
David, you're probably right as I'm a relative noob at Dominion and I'm convinced from your prior posts that you are an expert :)

However, with small deck size at the outset of the game I'm not sure adding another VP card (i.e. province) is that much of a drag. And with Baron, 3 estates, and 9 coin in the deck at this point, getting reasonable draws into the 4-6 coin range in the next several turns is highly likely. This allows for purchase of more coin and deck cyclers, and quickly more provinces.

When I buy an early province, the usual outcome is that I am up 2 or even 3 provinces to zero and my opponent is still building an engine. The intrigue cards (even the paltry 5 offered on BSW) really allow for improved deck cycling which makes the concept of early, aggressive VP buying--a strategy that works quite well in the base game--even more attractive.

I really love adding a remodel to this, getting up to 3 provinces, and then starting to trash them :devil:


That seems more like your opponent is being slow than anything. Although, I will say that with province remodeling, that is probably a wicked good strategy. Being up 2-0 with 4 left is much different than being up 2-0 with 6 or 8 left.

Being up 3-0 in provinces is normally good, but it can turn around quickly if you lucked your way there and don't have much of a deck left. If you have 14 cards and get a province, it's clogging up 1 in 3 of your hands, and it's really hard to be able to still afford one if you still have the basic deck, for the most part. This is true for both coppersmith and baron, I'd think. If I was sure to get a 3-0 lead, I'd still take that chance... but you don't know that when you get that first province.

Edit: You can also see what would have happened with all your future hands if you get the province. Every time you get the province, ponder what would happen if you got gold instead. It gets messy after awhile because you would be buying different cards, but it's a fun experiment.
 
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Ian Kelly
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I ran a Big Money simulation (I know, I know) the other day comparing early province buys to early gold buys (with 8+ coins available). Gold came out modestly ahead.

Here, an "early province/gold buy" was defined as the card chosen on an 8+ coin turn while the deck still had no gold in it. This scenario seems to come up about one game in seven; games where it failed to come up were aborted. Both strategies purchased a single Envoy but otherwise bought only Silver, Gold, and Provinces. The metric that was recorded was number of turns to buy 4 Provinces.

The Gold strategy took about 15.1 turns on average, while the Province strategy took about 15.2 turns on average. The difference is significant but not large, and after changing the "early game" criteria to having exactly one gold in the deck, the situation reverses, with gold at about 15.0 turns and province at about 14.8.

This result suggests to me that it's generally good to start buying provinces early, as long as it's not ridiculously early.
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David desJardins
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Peristarkawan wrote:
The Gold strategy took about 15.1 turns on average, while the Province strategy took about 15.2 turns on average. The difference is significant but not large, and after changing the "early game" criteria to having exactly one gold in the deck, the situation reverses, with gold at about 15.0 turns and province at about 14.8.


That's not early. The original question was about buying a Province on turn 3.
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Ian Kelly
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Peristarkawan wrote:
The Gold strategy took about 15.1 turns on average, while the Province strategy took about 15.2 turns on average. The difference is significant but not large, and after changing the "early game" criteria to having exactly one gold in the deck, the situation reverses, with gold at about 15.0 turns and province at about 14.8.


That's not early. The original question was about buying a Province on turn 3.


You're obviously not going to have a Gold yet on turn 3, so I think my simulation answers the OP's question rather clearly: don't buy the province.
 
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Jamie Pollock
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VinceHerman wrote:
Whether your first Province opportunity comes along on the third turn, or some turn after that, you need to evaluate your position. Early in the game, it is almost always better to concentrate on deck improvement. The switch to Province acquisition typically comes later.
I beat a fair number of opponents because they buy provinces too early, and I spend more time improving my deck, while they are now less efficient because of the dead card.


yup, agreed.
 
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