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Subject: Should the Brigante invade the Picts? rss

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Robert
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After reading the topic about a Brigante invasion of Wales, I was wondering: what happens if the Brigante do the opposite? My hypothetical situation is this:

During the Romans' first turn, they've submitted the Belgae and the Welsh, and taken March (but nothing else) from the Brigante. This means the Brigante grow 14, and end up with 8+2=10 units. They then send 3 of those units to invade Dunedin, leave 2 in Strathclyde, 3 in Galloway, 1 in Cumbria, and 1 in Cheshire (you may want to adjust those numbers to discourage the Romans from taking Galloway instead of both Cumbria and Cheshire, depending on how many units they have). This leaves the Picts with a growth of 5 on their first turn, and 5 or 6 units - not enough to force you out of Dunedin without severely endangering their own heartland.

On the Romans' second turn, they "force" you to surrender, and depending on whether they give you full growth and how the fight against the Picts went, you've now got 7-9 units in 3 areas, enough to take 1 of Dalriada, Alban and Mar from the Picts with a 3-1 or 4-1 attack. If you haven't been too unlucky, the Picts are unable to take Dunedin or your new conquest from you, which means that by the time the Romans force them to surrender in turn 3, you'll hold 4 (or if you're both willing to take a risk and extremely lucky, 5) areas, 2 of which are regular terrain, instead of the regular 3.

Downsides to this that I can think of would be that the Romans have a pretty easy advance, meaning they end up with 1 or 2 more legions to defend themselves with in the south, and they might give you half growth instead of full growth so you're not too strong for the Scots.

Any opinions?
 
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Ken
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The downside you're missing is that red would be boosting yellow by a pretty significant margin. The Romans already want the stuff in Pictland (it's not Scotland - yet). So they're going to send armies north to hit them. By hitting the Picts when you're likely to submit, you're doing the Roman's work for them, taking losses for them, and handing points to them when submission finally comes and you hold Pictish territory. Meanwhile, you aren't hitting a nation that you really want anything from (compared to the Welsh, who your Irish really, really want to push out of territories) and may be setting up yellow for a nice Scottish invasion to boot.

Why would you want to boost Yellow's points (every Pictish area you take scores for them when you take it, plus Limes) rather than help out your Irish? Plus, you'll make it easier for the Romans to get a Pictish submission, which they don't always land. Then you make it easier for the Romans when Limes come around because you're holding down stuff they'd normally have to defend.

Lots of yellow upside. Not sure there's a red one.
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Moshe Callen
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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I once played a game in which as red I had the Brigantes invade the Picts and I did incredibly well that game. It worked so well I tried it next time playing and I got thoroughly crushed.

IF you're successful, it can be good [but does nto have to be]; IF on the other hand you're not successful, it's generally always very bad.

As an aggressive player, I'll do it sometimes but it rarely works and is not so often worth it when it does, but if everything comes together just right, it can be very good.

Short version: Play the lottery; your odds are better.
 
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Robert
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I suppose playing it that way would help Yellow much more than it would help the Brigantes - the thing is, though, that simply submitting to the Romans at 3 areas seems like an extremely dull thing to do, and charging at the Romans seems like it would benefit the Picts much more than the Brigante. A succesful attack which allows you to take an area from the Picts with the Brigante, on the other hand, would hopefully leave the Brigante with better odds against the Angles. Perhaps taking Dunedin after submitting, instead of before? I really don't see a lot of potential for the Brigante otherwise.
 
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Ken
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The Brigantes typically do just fine by submitting quickly and waiting it out. Cut a deal with the Romans for full growth when the time is right and offer to fill in areas that have had forts burned. The Romans are likely to oblige, since the Brigantes will score the Limes for areas that they'd otherwise miss. It's up to you to decide whether you'll live up to your end of the bargain, but it's a good negotiating tactic if you're looking for growth.

Yes, submission can be boring. But dying to the Picts in the Highlands or giving something and getting nothing is both boring and a bit silly.
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Lewis Pulsipher
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Brit isn't a conquest game, sometimes you have to be a "statesman" and do the unexciting thing.

Historically, the Brigantes submitted to the Romans before the Romans reached them. But then the ruling couple had a falling out, they changed policy, and the Romans had to use force. No way to have that much detail in Brit, can do it in a larger and longer version! I don't recall whether B3 includes the option for Brigs to rebel, but FFG isn't interested in B3 (expansion).


Lew
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ewan m
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What Lew said at least with regard to 'they also serve.'

Attacking the Picts is generally a bad idea: helps the Scots too much, annoys the player who is about to come in with the Angles. Making an agreement *not* to attack the Picts may buy you a little Angle friendship.

Attacking the Welsh can be tough only because the Romans if competent will prevent you from getting there. And there's always a tough balance in the Red-Green relationship of how much to beat on Green prior to the Danes arriving .

So my usual tactic with the Brigs is to try to take out one garrisoned fort (usually CHE or YOR) on T1 with massed semi-disposable Brigantes, for the kill points, then submit and grow in peace. Snipe CUM with the Irish to give yourself a 4th area in which to grow, deal with the Romans to allow full growth if you fill Limes for them, and all is well.

 
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Tim Gilberg
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perfalbion wrote:
The downside you're missing is that red would be boosting yellow by a pretty significant margin.


Given that Yellow is generally struggling for points more than Blue, and that Blue is much more head-to-head with Red, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
 
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Kerney Williams
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Plan 1 Turn 1

Note: Still using the old Avalon Hill edition, if I am off so be it.

1) Assume the Roman have gotten to a Pennies-Berncia-Cheshire line turn one. 0-3 armies have retreated.

One your first turn, pull out of Lothian and Cumbria and then take Dunedin from the Picts. Before or after you bargin with the Romans to get them to leave Cumbria unoccuppied and to get future growth, points that he will get since you have submitted.(If you have leftovers due too too many "retreaters" leave a "sacrifice Army" in Lothian.) This, keeps the Picts from breeding first turn and gets you good terms from the Romans. You also avoid the Highlands and don't annoy Blue too much.

2) Turn 2-3 grow and fill Cumbria.

3) Turn 4 Bargin with the Romans to leave Cheshire "Unguarded". Let the Irish destroy the fort there.

4) Turn 5, Brigantes reoccupy Cheshire in the name of Rome. Romans get lime points. Also, if the opportunity arises, use Saxons raiders in Cornwall/Devon to split reinforcements.

5) Turn 6, Attack on Clwyd in support of the Irish in Gwynedd or alternately let the Irish exploit the south if that is a better option.

All the Best,

Kerney
 
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Jeff Long
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The major problem I see with Brigante invading the Picts is that it likely won't be legal.

Under the FFG version, nations that have submitted to the Romans cannot attack each other. In our games, the Picts very often 'self-submit' on their Turn 1 (Roman turn 2) anyway - they will CERTAINLY do so when faced with an imminent Brigante attack. You can still attack Picts on the first turn of course, but then the Romans will submit you and you'll be left with only 3 territories and nowhere to expand, because the Picts will have submitted as well.

 
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Jon G
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Kerney wrote:
Plan 1 Turn 1

Note: Still using the old Avalon Hill edition, if I am off so be it.

1) Assume the Roman have gotten to a Pennies-Berncia-Cheshire line turn one. 0-3 armies have retreated.

One your first turn, pull out of Lothian and Cumbria and then take Dunedin from the Picts. Before or after you bargin with the Romans to get them to leave Cumbria unoccuppied and to get future growth, points that he will get since you have submitted.(If you have leftovers due too too many "retreaters" leave a "sacrifice Army" in Lothian.) This, keeps the Picts from breeding first turn and gets you good terms from the Romans. You also avoid the Highlands and don't annoy Blue too much.

2) Turn 2-3 grow and fill Cumbria.

3) Turn 4 Bargin with the Romans to leave Cheshire "Unguarded". Let the Irish destroy the fort there.

4) Turn 5, Brigantes reoccupy Cheshire in the name of Rome. Romans get lime points. Also, if the opportunity arises, use Saxons raiders in Cornwall/Devon to split reinforcements.

5) Turn 6, Attack on Clwyd in support of the Irish in Gwynedd or alternately let the Irish exploit the south if that is a better option.


That's great if the Roman agrees. The problem is that after you take Dunedin, there's no incentive for the Romans to give you more territory. If I'm yellow, I'd like to see the Brigs have 7-8 armies in Turn 6... enough to keep the Angles busy, and off the Scots back. If the Brigs actually beat the Angles, the Scots end up in a Norse-Brig-Pict anvil instead of an Angle-Pict one. And red has likely run away with the game...
 
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Jon G
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The_Immortal wrote:
The major problem I see with Brigante invading the Picts is that it likely won't be legal.

Under the FFG version, nations that have submitted to the Romans cannot attack each other. In our games, the Picts very often 'self-submit' on their Turn 1 (Roman turn 2) anyway - they will CERTAINLY do so when faced with an imminent Brigante attack. You can still attack Picts on the first turn of course, but then the Romans will submit you and you'll be left with only 3 territories and nowhere to expand, because the Picts will have submitted as well.


The Brigs move before the Picts, so they can certainly attack Dunedin on Turn 1. Also, FYI, the new rules disallow submission before Roman contact unless the Roman offers it.
 
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Philip Thomas
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At 6 Vps per Legion, I'm always more tempted to attack the Romans with the Brigantes. It also seems to be thematically justified. meeple
 
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Jeff Long
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dr.mrow wrote:

The Brigs move before the Picts, so they can certainly attack Dunedin on Turn 1. Also, FYI, the new rules disallow submission before Roman contact unless the Roman offers it.


Can you direct me to where this is stated? The rules as written (both my own hard copy and the pdf from the FFG webpage) state that nations may submit during the Roman turn "after any round of battle, after any battle finishes or after any Roman movement phase." As far as I can tell, this latter statement is not contradicted by the FAQ. This means that the Romans need not attack the Picts at all for them to submit, they can simply declare their submission at the end of Roman Movement Phase on round 2.

Otherwise, indeed I agree the Brigs can attack the Picts on round 1, but I fail to see what this gets them, since they are unable to follow up and take more territories on the next turn.
 
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Jon G
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The_Immortal wrote:

Can you direct me to where this is stated? The rules as written (both my own hard copy and the pdf from the FFG webpage) state that nations may submit during the Roman turn "after any round of battle, after any battle finishes or after any Roman movement phase." As far as I can tell, this latter statement is not contradicted by the FAQ. This means that the Romans need not attack the Picts at all for them to submit, they can simply declare their submission at the end of Roman Movement Phase on round 2.

Otherwise, indeed I agree the Brigs can attack the Picts on round 1, but I fail to see what this gets them, since they are unable to follow up and take more territories on the next turn.


The Picts start with six territories and can't submit until they're down to three territories. So they're not eligible to submit on Roman T1, and the Brigs can attack before the Picts move. Regarding the "new rules", they may or may not be in the new printing that just came out. I'll let lew speak to that...

As for why, I think of a Turn 1 Brig attack on Dunedin as an active defense against the Picts; if the Brigs let the Picts keep Dunedin, the Picts may use the extra army to attack Strathclyde or Lothian, then submit to the Romans and backfill the Highlands on turn 2. Done correctly, the Brigs can be left with 2 territories, and forced to submit in a terrible position.
 
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