Pussy Katz
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Let's say I've already settled DW on my tableau previously. I choose settle, and as my first settle I discarded DW to settle something. Now I draw my settling (and perhaps terraforming) rebate(s) before I settle my additional world, but the draw pile is empty. So the discard pile is shuffled into a draw pile, and lo and behold I drew DW again.

Can I settle DW for my second settle?
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Jon
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Sure.
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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Yes. Note that doing it in the reverse order (settling Doomed World for your first settle, then discarding it to pay for the second world) is not allowed because powers on a card have no effect on the phase in which it appears.
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Matt N

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You can do it, but my general rule is that if you have to settle doomed world, you are...

Oversimplification, but I would never pick Settle to settle that world.
 
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Guy Srinivasan
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DW has an explore power, can massively increase your effective hand size, and blunts Settle. It's a great earlyish stalling play if your opponent's low on cards and filling up on a Trade or something.
 
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Matt N

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"DW has an explore power"
True, but not enough for me to play it normally.

"can massively increase your effective hand size"
Also true, but that only seems to matter late game where a settle is most likely to backfire. I don't need to increase my effective hand size if I play a world, and... I then have a useful world in play. The potential hit of ending the game with it on the tableau is also quite giant.

"blunts Settle"
I disagree. I assume that for playing against a doomed world/colony ship that if my opponent's got a world worth playing they'll settle anyway, so I'll just play normally. I also don't like deliberately passing up a useful settle to have a better one later.

"It's a great earlyish stalling play if your opponent's low on cards and filling up on a Trade or something."
I guess that's the one place that would justify it, but my main nemesis is pretty careful about not leaving himself vulnerable like that. Usually that leads to explore +1/+1 and trade anyways, so there's no guarantee he'll be caught without anything.

Double settle -> doomed world + 4-5 cost of my choice could be okay when my opponent is low on cards, but that's pretty contrived. Maybe settle + trade with an existing good against an opponent with a consume power, so their hypothetical windfall gets eaten. I suppose I shouldn't have said never, but I hate being wishy-washy without concrete reasons, and those scenarios would only put it slightly above gambling world/expanding colony in utility.
 
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Guy Srinivasan
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Massively increasing your effective hand size is much better early game, where you have 3-4 great cards you want to keep around until you can afford them.

If you just play normally against a DW/CS, I know at least one place you can improve your play. If your assumption is right, that your opponent will "settle anyway", then I know at least one place your opponents can improve their play.

The reason it's a stalling play isn't because you're trying to catch your opponent without anything, it's because you've Settled when he has few cards, so if he wants to use your Settle he can't hold on to many good cards. Further, once he fills up on Trade, he should (you might not, but that's a flaw in your play ) think twice about Settling - and suddenly Produce/Consume is slower.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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onigame wrote:
Yes. Note that doing it in the reverse order (settling Doomed World for your first settle, then discarding it to pay for the second world) is not allowed because powers on a card have no effect on the phase in which it appears.


Is not the existence of Doomed World in the tableau itself a "power"? And like other powers, shouldn't it still be in effect for the full length of the phase that it starts out being present in?

Or is the presence of Doomed world in the tableau merely some "property" of the tableau, (all powers are properties but not all properties are powers), and "properties" can change with sub-phase granularity?

Just playing devils advocate here.


PS: for another example of existence exhibiting "power"-like timing, look at Hidden Fortress / Improved Logistics going into a settle: first world is a low-value military. The existence of that world is not "fast enough" to pump up the military of Hidden Fortress during the second half of that settle.
 
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Randall Bart
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MrWeasely wrote:
Is not the existence of Doomed World in the tableau itself a "power"? And like other powers, shouldn't it still be in effect for the full length of the phase that it starts out being present in?

Or is the presence of Doomed world in the tableau merely some "property" of the tableau, (all powers are properties but not all properties are powers), and "properties" can change with sub-phase granularity?

Just playing devils advocate here.

devilthumbsupdevilthumbsupdevilthumbsup
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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MrWeasely wrote:
onigame wrote:
Yes. Note that doing it in the reverse order (settling Doomed World for your first settle, then discarding it to pay for the second world) is not allowed because powers on a card have no effect on the phase in which it appears.


Is not the existence of Doomed World in the tableau itself a "power"? And like other powers, shouldn't it still be in effect for the full length of the phase that it starts out being present in?


In Wei-Hwa's example, it wasn't present at the start of the phase. I have no idea what you are going on about.
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MasterDinadan wrote:
MrWeasely wrote:
onigame wrote:
Yes. Note that doing it in the reverse order (settling Doomed World for your first settle, then discarding it to pay for the second world) is not allowed because powers on a card have no effect on the phase in which it appears.


Is not the existence of Doomed World in the tableau itself a "power"? And like other powers, shouldn't it still be in effect for the full length of the phase that it starts out being present in?


In Wei-Hwa's example, it wasn't present at the start of the phase. I have no idea what you are going on about.


Sounded like an instance of using the same DW to settle 2 worlds in a single Settle phase due to Improved Logistics. If this was the case, then "no" b/c DW says you get to settle one non-military, non-yellow world at 0 cost. Unlike NMT or Space Merc., DW (nor Colony Ship) does not state the power lasts for the rest of the Settle phase
 
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Matt N

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GreedyAlgorithm wrote:
Massively increasing your effective hand size is much better early game, where you have 3-4 great cards you want to keep around until you can afford them.


You're playing different games than me then. I have 1, maybe 2 great cards at most, and a bunch of mediocre ones. (Exception is for military when I explore +5 a lot.) The key to this game is playing a lot of the mediocre ones to make a strategy, not saving up for the hypothetical great cards that may or may not make a difference by the time they're played.

GreedyAlgorithm wrote:
If you just play normally against a DW/CS, I know at least one place you can improve your play. If your assumption is right, that your opponent will "settle anyway", then I know at least one place your opponents can improve their play.

The reason it's a stalling play isn't because you're trying to catch your opponent without anything, it's because you've Settled when he has few cards, so if he wants to use your Settle he can't hold on to many good cards. Further, once he fills up on Trade, he should (you might not, but that's a flaw in your play :D) think twice about Settling - and suddenly Produce/Consume is slower.


Ok, three situations here:

1. DW/CS, but opponent doesn't have anything great

If I settle, I get an advantage, assuming that I'm not stupid about settling. (I'm not.)

2. DW/CS, opponent has a good world, we both settle

A minor loss at most here; it's typically better to explore/develop, but sometimes it's better to do neither. I also have the confidence of picking my second phase and knowing that it will work. I call this a push.

3. DW/CS, opponent has a good world, only I settle

I usually lose quite a bit here; the problem for my opponent is that I have to settle for their superior world to work. If I decide to not settle for whatever reason (I'm low on cards because I just settled...) then they lose when I produce or whatever else I'm doing.


People would need to have a lot of faith in me for the third scenario to be more likely than the first one, so it's better to settle unless I clearly signaled last turn that I'd settle this turn. I'd also add that your deterrent is quite player dependent, so talking in absolutes about "improving your game" is incorrect. Similarly to poker, the bluff that works well against the pessimistic tight player is a disaster against the loose caller.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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MasterDinadan wrote:
MrWeasely wrote:
onigame wrote:
Yes. Note that doing it in the reverse order (settling Doomed World for your first settle, then discarding it to pay for the second world) is not allowed because powers on a card have no effect on the phase in which it appears.


Is not the existence of Doomed World in the tableau itself a "power"? And like other powers, shouldn't it still be in effect for the full length of the phase that it starts out being present in?


In Wei-Hwa's example, it wasn't present at the start of the phase. I have no idea what you are going on about.

Uh, no.
In Pussy Kat's example, it starts present in tableau, gets discarded on the first settle, and immediately re-drawn due to being discarded right before a reshuffle. The question is: can they immediately put it into play during the same settle phase.

The question could also be asked of New Military Tactics, Colony Shiff, etcetera.
 
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Mark Delano
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MrWeasely wrote:
Uh, no.
In Pussy Kat's example, it starts present in tableau, gets discarded on the first settle, and immediately re-drawn due to being discarded right before a reshuffle. The question is: can they immediately put it into play during the same settle phase.

The question could also be asked of New Military Tactics, Colony Shiff, etcetera.


1. Wei-Hwa's example is an explicitly different scenario, which is the one you were replying to.
2. There's no way you can play NMT or Colony Ship during Settle or for that matter discard it during Develop.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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1) Onigame was actually referencing two different scenarios in the quoted text, the main one and a note. Most people can figure this out from context, but not some people, apparently.

2) True enough.


 
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