Thomas Young
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I hope so as this is where they first came into combat, the Tiger less so since they did see some bad combat tests earlier, at least a few of them....

Cheers, looking forward to this game when it comes out!!

Tom
 
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James Palmer
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There will definitely be Panthers and Tigers - not sure about Elephants though.
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Post by Uwe about Elefants from another thread:

Quote:
We concentrated on the southern flank of the German attack, since the battle was really fought quite differently on the two fronts. The elefants were on the northern flank. The southern flank had tons of Pz Grenadiers and captured soviet tanks used by the SS. So we do have German T-34s and Soviet lend lease Churchill MKIIIs. Some quite effective units are the M3 Scout and M3 APC, both mounted with 50 cal MGs. Some of the M3s are set up as anti-air capable, so will be of some worry for the Stukas and Hs129b.
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Thomas Young
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Thanks, I saw the Panther in one of the pics for a token, but I thought the Panthers were not in the South. I beleave those that did'nt break down ran into a minefield and had that problem to contend with, what was it about 20 or so made into the action after all the break downs and minefield experiences I think...??

Cheers, I hope it does come out at the end of the month with no more delays, just ordered Waking the Russian Bear yesterday!!

Tom
 
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Joao Geada
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What is the fascination with the Elefant?

There were less than 100 of these things built for the whole war and
were not all that effective.
 
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Thomas Young
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Hey Joao, I have never played Kursk with the Elephants in any game formatt, not sure that there is one......?:whistle:

Looking for a realistic game that portrays these "guys" with the actual terrain and enemy being faced, and the minefields. Maybe at some point an expansion of this could come out, a long shot I know, but...:arrrh:

Kinda the same thing with the Panthers, I want to game the exact situation on the "real" battlefield with what they had as to units, terrain and what they had to go through, breaking down, minefields, you know. :cool:

Cheers, maybe regaming this with different decisions (like giving infrantry support with the no hull MG, and looking for minefields before they drive through them, LOL) and the Kursk battle could change a bit at least where the Elepahnts and Panthers were fighting. Also the Tiger P was the Elephants command vehicle, another fun thing to game.

Thanks for the post and being curious about my interests.

Tom:)
 
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jgeada wrote:
What is the fascination with the Elefant?

There were less than 100 of these things built for the whole war and
were not all that effective.


I dunno... but the idea of charging an enormous tank destroyer with a rifle platoon and having them disable it with entrenching tools, bits of wood and anything else they had lying around is pretty appealing.

Maybe that's another reason why it's not in the game, they'd probably have to add an extra rule or counter icon to represent the Elefants complete lack of infantry defense at Kursk.
 
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Thomas Young
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But the thing is here that you are the overall commander, so you could put those Infrantry support units with the Elephant. Then say have a recon in advance to spot those minefields. It seems from what I have read is that the Russian arty and mines stripped off most of the support for the Elephants, but they continued on with no support, and paid the price, for the ones who made it through the minefields that is.

Cheers, does anyone else have any "hard" info on the specifics of the Elephants in action at Kursk and their support units?

Tom
 
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James Palmer
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I don't have any hard info on the specifics, but if you feel like reading, I found a book that apparently talks about it a lot:

http://www.amazon.com/Zitadelle-German-Offensive-Against-Sal...

A reasonably pricey book, but who knows, maybe there's a library around that has it.
 
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Joao Geada
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You can also find some information at http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz6.htm
 
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Thomas Young
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Thanks for the help here guys, have either of you read that book by chance, and if so does it have the Elephants in detailed combat in it? I've seen the AP site before, but it refreshed my memory a bit better.

Cheers, maybe an expansion later on I guess I can hope for. I like to game specific circumstances with nown units and terrain as I think you have the picture by now. More like, well we know how the Germans did with these units with them running it, but what if they (meaning us the gamer here) did things a bit different. Now to me that is real war gaming, depending on the system used naturally.

Thanks again!!

Tom

PS, any news or word/book on the Panthers specific "plight" at Kursk and what they went through, that would be a good one to game as well. You can't do much about the mechanical breakdowns, but finding the min fields again before they run into them may help a bit as well, maybe.....
 
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James Palmer
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TRDG wrote:
Thanks for the help here guys, have either of you read that book by chance, and if so does it have the Elephants in detailed combat in it? I've seen the AP site before, but it refreshed my memory a bit better.


Unfortunately, my knowledge of WWII is fairly slim. I had not even heard of Elephants until this particular thread. I am schooling myself with the most excellent World at War documentary series though, and am learning plenty! I recently got through the episode that involved Kursk, but unfortunately they did not mention this tank.
 
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Thomas Young
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Hey James, that is part of the fun in WW II gaming, learning things one does'nt know. I'm fairly well read on WW II. Eastern and west front, not so much on the Pacific. The Elephant was a heavy Assualt/AT platform vehicle not a tank actually, originating from the Tiger I's developement, the one that did'nt get "picked" LOL

Cheers, thanks for the reply sir

Tom
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TRDG wrote:
Hey James, that is part of the fun in WW II gaming, learning things one does'nt know. I'm fairly well read on WW II. Eastern and west front, not so much on the Pacific. The Elephant was a heavy Assualt/AT platform vehicle not a tank actually, originating from the Tiger I's developement, the one that did'nt get "picked" LOL

Cheers, thanks for the reply sir

Tom


I think that is one of the things I enjoy most about wargaming is the educational aspect. As much as I love Agricola, it teaches me virtually nothing about farming and does not make me want to go off and research farming.

On the contrary, after playing Twilight Struggle, I spent an entire day in Ottawa at the Diefenbunker and at the Canadian War Museum in the Cold War section.

Now I am hooked again on Conflict of Heroes and going through the fabulous World at War documentary series - I'd say I now know 10 times as much about World War II and the Cold War as I did a year ago, and this learning was completely initiated by board games.

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Henric Blyvall
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Felkor wrote:
TRDG wrote:
Hey James, that is part of the fun in WW II gaming, learning things one does'nt know. I'm fairly well read on WW II. Eastern and west front, not so much on the Pacific. The Elephant was a heavy Assualt/AT platform vehicle not a tank actually, originating from the Tiger I's developement, the one that did'nt get "picked" LOL

Cheers, thanks for the reply sir

Tom


I think that is one of the things I enjoy most about wargaming is the educational aspect. As much as I love Agricola, it teaches me virtually nothing about farming and does not make me want to go off and research farming.

On the contrary, after playing Twilight Struggle, I spent an entire day in Ottawa at the Diefenbunker and at the Canadian War Museum in the Cold War section.

Now I am hooked again on Conflict of Heroes and going through the fabulous World at War documentary series - I'd say I now know 10 times as much about World War II and the Cold War as I did a year ago, and this learning was completely initiated by board games.



I can´t recommend that documentary series World at War enough. I vaguely remember seeing some of it as a kid, then they never aired it again here in Sweden (not that I know of at least, but since there only were two channels I think I could hardly have missed it if they did...). Then I found it on some torrent site (yes illegal I know) and could finally watch it again after 30 years. Then I bought the dvd box! Nowadays there is frankly a s**tload of documentaries on ww2 but this is THE one, and it´s from the early 70´s! And Lawrence Olivier is hard to beat too of course.

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I like The World at War and the History channel's Century of Warfare series as well. Some of the hourly docs though, not of either of these series do leave some things to be desired though. Misidentifying tanks and some of the "numbers" as stated are somewhat questionable for those who keep up on these things.
I'm always looking for more docs that have good combat footage that I hav'nt seen before, harder to find now after seeing a lot of them, but once in a while a nice surprise on something "new" that comes out, or something old gets reissued.

Cheers, thank god at least we have a lot of them to pick and chose more and more these days.

Tom

 
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So many 'historians' make mistakes when it comes to WWII hardware.

I just finished D-Day by Antony Beevor, I loved his Stalingrad & Berlin books but I was pretty dissapointed when he said that the Ferdinands in Normandy (which itself sounds wrong to me) were based on a Panther chassis and had a 128mm gun. Gotta wonder who fact checks these things.

If you want to see a great film with real Soviet hardware in it (probably better suited to Awakening the Bear than SoS) see if you can find a copy of the Winter War. (Talvisota) It's a great Finnish film but everything in it is the real deal. It has one of the best tank scenes (with genuine Russian T-26's) I've ever seen.
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Henric Blyvall
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Jasta wrote:
So many 'historians' make mistakes when it comes to WWII hardware.

I just finished D-Day by Antony Beevor, I loved his Stalingrad & Berlin books but I was pretty dissapointed when he said that the Ferdinands in Normandy (which itself sounds wrong to me) were based on a Panther chassis and had a 128mm gun. Gotta wonder who fact checks these things.

If you want to see a great film with real Soviet hardware in it (probably better suited to Awakening the Bear than SoS) see if you can find a copy of the Winter War. (Talvisota) It's a great Finnish film but everything in it is the real deal. It has one of the best tank scenes (with genuine Russian T-26's) I've ever seen.


Second that. Very good film!
 
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Thomas Young
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I'll have to see if I can find that movie, then maybe those books. That Normandy and Ferdy bit sounds like some of the comments written for the Bulge. Where it was supposed to be a Company of Ferdies there, but in reality it was the Jagdtiger, the mention of the gun is kind of a givaway, no J Tigers though in the Normandy front that I know of, a bit to early. Perhaps the konigstiger perhaps....??

Cheers, good talking to you guys, sorry for the non Kursk talk here everyone, but I think interesting none the less, to some anyways.

Tom:)
 
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TRDG wrote:
I'll have to see if I can find that movie, then maybe those books. That Normandy and Ferdy bit sounds like some of the comments written for the Bulge. Where it was supposed to be a Company of Ferdies there, but in reality it was the Jagdtiger, the mention of the gun is kind of a givaway, no J Tigers though in the Normandy front that I know of, a bit to early. Perhaps the konigstiger perhaps....??

Cheers, good talking to you guys, sorry for the non Kursk talk here everyone, but I think interesting none the less, to some anyways.

Tom


Antony Beevor's Berlin and Stalingrad are incredible books - they go into horrifying detail about what was a pretty terrible time to be either a German or a Russian solider, kind of makes you think twice about playing games about this stuff.

D-Day isn't quite as good. Maybe because it's been done to death but it just doesn't hit quite as hard. Still some pretty interesting stories though.

I kind of wonder how many myths continue to be perpetrated by the first hand accounts of the soldiers themselves. Beevor gets it wrong with why Shermans brewed up so much too - keeping the myth going about it being because they had petrol engines which is false. Most tanks had petrol engines and didn't brew up excessively - Shermans caught on fire because the early/mid models had bad ammo stowage. Problem is I've read first hand reports from Sherman crew who state that it was the fuel - makes me think that those who found out the real reason didn't live to talk about it.
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Thomas Young
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Yep, in the sponsons, a very bad place, I wonder though that the ammo that exploded also had a factor in having that fuel chatch fire a little easier, as the explosions of the shells could have cracked the fuel tanks for the fire to get easier access to. And hotter temps even if there was no cracking to heat up the fuel until one gets another explosion/flames kinda thing.

I'll check my book store this weekend hopefully and see if I can order those 2 books in.

Cheers, techical stuff seems to get a lot of "author Z"experts" from time to time, at least there are more than a few here and there who can set the record straight sometimes!!

Later my friend

Tom
 
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Actually there were no Elefants at Kursk... they were called "Ferdinands" and lacked a hull MG. This lack of anti-personnel weaponry caused an operational disadvantage.

The remaining vehicles were refitted at the end of the year and renamed "Elefants".
 
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Thomas Young
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Yes, I quite understand that Aaron, the hull mg was added and the rear escape hatch was improved as well for the Elephant. I tend to interchange them from time to time, but only once this time I beleave.

Cheers, less than a month to go guys, maybe a nation expansion pack with these "beasts" for the Germans!!:)

Tom
 
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