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Subject: Flaming your own terminators (1st ed) rss

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Jesse Miller
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Is it a legal tactic to flame a room containing your own dudes? The rules seem to hint yes when they state on page 7 (under Fire Flamer) "The Marine player rolls a dice (sic) for each piece in the section - Stealers and Marines. The piece is destroyed on a roll of 2-6."

However, I've seen a few references to this being a no-no, but I can't seem to back this up in the rules. Can someone point me in the right direction?
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Berthold Nüchter
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This is possible and legal.
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Rob Bradley
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I always thought that a marine can not purposely target or flame another marine with the only exception when the flamer self destructs.

I however, can not find any reference to it in the rules. After nearly twenty years of playing Space Hulk, I may have been playing it incorrectly.
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Jim P
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Spacehulk wrote:
I always thought that a marine can not purposely target or flame another marine with the only exception when the flamer self destructs.


I believe this is correct Rob. IMSMR it was in an issue of White Dwarf in an errata that you were not to flame a Brother Marine.

Flame yourself = OK devil
Flame a Brother = Heresy shake

Just in the Terminator Marine ethos I would not toast my Brother Marine!!

Brother Jim cool
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jasta6 wrote:
Just in the Terminator Marine ethos I would not toast my Brother Marine!!


Unless you were a Grey Knight - then you could flame another terminator.

It's the only way to be sure.
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Mark Chaplin
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On many occasions playing this game it has been tactically advantageous to burn my own troops. Surely the sacrifice of one, to let the rest of the squad complete the mission, is within the theme?

Or, who's to say, that in the heat of battle, the marine didn't accidentally flame his comrade in his rush to destroy the oncoming genestealer horde. After all, Drake flamed the APC by accident.



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Berthold Nüchter
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The Deathwing expansion also contains rules about weapons that effect all creatures in an area (Assault Cannon on Full Auto and Grenade Launcher). These rules cover the chance for killing hit marines.
This also indicates that it is legal to shoot at your own troops (although you would usually avoid it, of course).
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Andy Lomerson
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I've been playing the game since it first came out. In all the expansions and White Dwarf articles I've seen, I never recall one stating that killing your own Marine was explicitly against the rules. If someone can cite the official rule, I'd love to know.

However, it's somewhat of a moot point in my opinion. If you have to flame one of your own precious few Marines, you're either about to win with a sacrifice... or you've already lost!
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Carlos F.
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White Dwarf 142 Spacehulk Q&A by Simon Forrest:
Can you flame a section containing other Space Marines?

No. Although it doesn't mention it in the rules, you obviously can't attack your own models. We'd always assumed this to be the case and hadn't imagined that unscrupulous players might think of killing their own models.

The same goes for psychic section effects, self-destructing thunder hammers, firing assault cannon on full auto when there's a friendly model in the line of fire, and so forth.

White Dwarf 144 Spacehulk Q&A by Dean Bass:
Firing on Friendly Troops

Can you fire on your own Space Marines to gain an advantage?

As we've pointed out previously in Simon's article and in Space Hulk Campaigns, a Space Marine would never even consider firing at a Genestealer if it meant destroying another Brother Marine. However, it's worth pointing out that this rule does not apply to Genestealers. They'll sacrifice themselves without hesitation, for the survival of the brood.

http://spacehulk.barsoom.cc/mirrors/shc/ in the upper menu select Q&A
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Mark Chaplin
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It's interesting to me that they hadn't imagined anybody killing their own models. That smacks of either too little play testing or a huge lack of imagination, obviously.

Game turned out okay, though, so all is well.



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Christopher
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Yugblad wrote:
It's interesting to me that they hadn't imagined anybody killing their own models. That smacks of either too little play testing or a huge lack of imagination, obviously.


I guess you have to see this from a Space Marine Terminator (elite of the legion/chapter) point of view! In contrary to all other types of armies, be it in real history or in the WH40K universe, the Space Marines will always avoid to sacrifice even one of their own troops, even marines of other legions/chapters wont be shot at! The life of a Space Marine is far to valuable, knowing that the knowledge to breed new gene-seed has been lost.

Remark, this gives the virus bombing of Istvaan III an even more cruel/wrong/heretic/... meaning than just the loss of lives!
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And so, now that you all have this information...

How shall you play it?

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Rob Bradley
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I believe the references to being able to kill your own marines are there only to cover all eventualities. There are situations where you are not targeting a marine or even putting him in harms way when firing; but then s**t happens! For example, an assault cannon goes on full auto and rips through 4 genestealers and then through 2 doors and Oops, there goes the Sgt. on the other side of that door. If I remember right, there is also a psyker card in Genestealer which allows your opponent to move one of your models...what if he does so as you are flaming a board section? You can also kill a brother marine by falling through a pitfall onto him with a bad roll.

But shooting a brother marine just because he is in your way? Not a chance!
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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The only time this would have come up in the games I've played have been the desparation Flamer token thrown into a room to keep Genestealers at bay, and there happens to be another Marine in the room.

I can't think of any other game (and I've played many) where a Marine explicitly targeted another Marine, since the soldiers are finite/limited, it makes no sense. However, the desparate last flamer ditch attempt I have seen, very rarely, but have seen none-the-less.

IMHO, I'd continue to play with the RAW...

-shnar
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Berthold Nüchter
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Maybe the rules about killing marines with marine weapons in Space Hulk and Deathwing were only made for combat beetween Space Marines and Traitor Marines. Traitor Marines are not covered in Space Hulk, Deathwing and Genestealer, but it seems to be possible to me that the designers had already created the rules about them and therefore included the rules about damage to marines by marine weapons in the base game and the expansion.
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しんぶん赤旗
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I play a fair bit of space hulk and the only rule that we ignore is that you are not allowed to target your own marines. Instead we play that you can flame your marines (but not shoot them with a storm bolter) just because when you have four stealers in a room with a terminator the odds of them surviving a flamer strike is far greater than surviving hand to hand combat.
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Christopher
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bolter wrote:
... just because when you have four stealers in a room with a terminator the odds of them surviving a flamer strike is far greater than surviving hand to hand combat.


I am still convinced that even with better odds in that particular situation, Space Marines would still not target their own people...
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Jesse Miller
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Thanks for your input everyone. Interesting perspectives all around.

My 2 cents is that it seems odd that the marines would NEVER even consider killing one of their own, but that in the base game Mission Four: Cleanse and Burn "The Techmarine captives are being held in two rooms.... To kill the captives and protect the Chapter's gene seed, the Marines must 'cleanse' each room by hitting it with a flamer shot".

I guess techmarines don't count.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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This goes back to the whole 'heroic sacrifice' that we've all been talking about. Seems like the only time a marine has targeted another marine has been if they were collateral damage, i.e. flamer casualties but not the primary targets. IMHO, I see nothing wrong with it and will continue to play as such...

-shnar
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Jesse Miller
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shnar wrote:
This goes back to the whole 'heroic sacrifice' that we've all been talking about. Seems like the only time a marine has targeted another marine has been if they were collateral damage, i.e. flamer casualties but not the primary targets. IMHO, I see nothing wrong with it and will continue to play as such...

-shnar



Oh, I agree with you. I was sort of being sarcastic with the NEVER part.

I kind of wonder about the whole "designer intent" thing here. Seems to me like GW dogma is creeping into the ruling, which may not be consistent with the game design.
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Joseph LaClair
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Seems to me to be a non issue. I think the times when you would possibly flame your own marine are few and far between. Heck in the 20 years I've been playing space hulk I think I have only self destructed once or twice.

If the marine is in a room surrounded by genestealers just save 2 cp's and flame the room after the marine has had his fighting chance. Of course if you only have 1 cp that may be an issue. But to flame a brother marine ...where's the love.
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Joseph LaClair
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bolter wrote:
I play a fair bit of space hulk and the only rule that we ignore is that you are not allowed to target your own marines. Instead we play that you can flame your marines (but not shoot them with a storm bolter) just because when you have four stealers in a room with a terminator the odds of them surviving a flamer strike is far greater than surviving hand to hand combat.



Yeah! But when they do...and it's happened... It's sweet. Would you deny your brother his chance for Glory. For the Emperor!
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Carlos F.
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Mision Four Background:
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Joseph LaClair
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karl69 wrote:
Mision Four Background:


Yeah! It does seem at first glance to be a bit of a contradiction But these are not marines who are unwounded and it does say he has neither the time or the manpower to attempt a rescue. Which I admit also seems contradictory as he seems to have enough time and manpower to dispatch a squad or two to see to their deaths.
As one poster stated, techmarines must be expendable.
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King of the Dead
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Marines are Marines.

If one is NOT expendable then none are.

My understanding of the universe of W40k is from the OLD school stuff though. Back when there was still a Star Child and all of that...

Maybe they updated how they would act towards other marines.

In any case, I've played that you could flame a section with another marine despite that.
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