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Subject: Is playing an action card after the throne room mandatory? rss

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Andy Latto
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If you play a throne room, are you then required to play an action card if you have one in your hand?

You might think that this is a stupid question: If you don't want to play the action card, just don't play the Throne Room in the first place! But consider the following scenario:

You start the turn with Province, Gold, Throne Room, Throne Room, Moat.

If you play Throne Room, Moat, you have no more actions, and can't take advantage of any cool action cards you draw. So the normal play here would be Throne Room, Throne Room, Moat. This lets you then play an action card you draw and perform the action twice.

But suppose you then draw Upgrade, Gold, Province, Gold!

Throne Room doesn't say you may play a card; it says to play an Action card, and the general Dominion rule is that if you can do what the Action card says, you must do so. So I think in this situation you must play an Upgrade, twice, and trash two cards, either Provinces or Golds. And you would gain nothing in return, since there are no cards costing exactly one more than a Gold or Province.

This is different than the situation with a card that says +1 Action. In that case, performing the action on the card (mandatory) consists of adding one to your "remaining actions count", and the rules of the game say that you don't have to play an action card just because your remaining actions count is not zero. Playing an action card after Throne Room seems to me to be required (if you have one) by the text on the Throne Room card.

This is not specific to Intrigue; I used Upgrade in my example because it was easy to come up with a situation where the effect of being forced to play it was very bad. But there are situations in the basic set where being forced to play an action card would be bad (being forced to remodel a Duchy late in the game, when there are no remaining Duchies, for example).

If my interpretation is correct, BSW gets this wrong; It lets you decline to play an action card after playing Throne Room.
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Donald X.
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andylatto wrote:
If you play a throne room, are you then required to play an action card if you have one in your hand?

Yes, you must.

The card should either say "you may" or make you reveal your hand if you can't play one. That it does neither of those things was an oversight. You still do have to play an action if you can though.
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Kevin Bourrillion
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Very nice catch!

Minor consolation: each time you Upgrade, you'll draw one more card first, so maybe you'll get something less disastrous to pitch away.
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Alexander Zbiek
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Hiya from BSW,
thanx for the detailed information on the throne room. I already fixed that issue. So it should go online tomorrow in the morning (GMT)
C U in BSW
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Craig Somerton
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On BSW a few weeks ago, I played Throne Room twice and then Moat once, which allowed me to draw another action card. This action was then played as the second Throne Roomed action card

Is this correct? It does seem logical and we have encountered it once or twice in the real game. Not that BSW isn't real.
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Dave G
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anomander64 wrote:
On BSW a few weeks ago, I played Throne Room twice and then Moat once, which allowed me to draw another action card. This action was then played as the second Throne Roomed action card

Is this correct? It does seem logical and we have encountered it once or twice in the real game. Not that BSW isn't real.


Yup, that's how that works. Multiple throne rooms give you an extra action.
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Tim Stellmach
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anomander64 wrote:
On BSW a few weeks ago, I played Throne Room twice and then Moat once, which allowed me to draw another action card. This action was then played as the second Throne Roomed action card

Is this correct? It does seem logical and we have encountered it once or twice in the real game. Not that BSW isn't real.

I'm not entirely sure what it is that doesn't seem logical, at least without more information.

If you used a Throne Room to play a Throne Room, the first one caused you to play the second one twice. If you played the first of those with the Moat, then you get to play the Moat twice. So you draw 4 cards.

At that point you've still got the second play of the second Throne Room to go. So if the only action card available is one of those 4 cards you just drew, then yes, since you've no choice but to play it, BSW acted correctly.

If you were under the impression that using a Throne Room on a Throne Room somehow let you play a single other card 4 times, as many people seem to be, then no, that's not how it works.
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Mark McEvoy
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I think the confuusion comes from people who have a Magic: The Gathering mindset., In MtG, for any targetted card, you must announce the target at declaration-time, not resolution-time. You can't throw a Terror on the stack and then, when it finally resolves, choose its target - you must declare the target right when you drop the card. If that target isn't still around when the Terror resolves, you don't get to pick a new target.

Throne Room doesn't work like this, and that's unintuitive to many MtG players. They expect when they play a Throne Room, they must declare what card it's doubling right that instant. And if that card is a Throne Room itself, they'd have to declare which card each of its instances is targetting, right that instant. So they'd have to make said decisions before getting the cards from the first doubled card-drawing iteration.

It goes:
I use throne room A. I target throne room.B
I resolve first instance of Throne Room B. I target Smithy.
I resolve Smithy.
I resolve Smithy Again.
I resolve second instance of Throne Room B. I target that Witch I just drew.
I resolve Witch.
I resolve Witch again.

But an MtG player expects it to go:
I use throne room A. I target Throne Room B, which instantiates two Throne Rooms and thus needs two targets declared NOW. For instance 1 I target Smithy and for instance 2 I target ... nothing, as I have no other action cards (or possibly would be forced to target Smithy again, but it would fail on resolution because the Smithy would be gone by that time; same net effect).
I resolve Smithy
I resolve Smithy again
Second iteration of Throne Room B fizzles because there was no target available at target declaration time (or fizzles because the Smithy it targetted is no longer in my hand).


Of course, this isn't how it works. But play MtG long enough and it's how you expect every targetted card in every card game works.
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Bill Barksdale
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Maybe it would help to think in terms of playing cards, like the rulebook says, rather than in terms of targets and instances.
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Craig Somerton
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timstellmach wrote:
anomander64 wrote:
On BSW a few weeks ago, I played Throne Room twice and then Moat once, which allowed me to draw another action card. This action was then played as the second Throne Roomed action card

Is this correct? It does seem logical and we have encountered it once or twice in the real game. Not that BSW isn't real.

I'm not entirely sure what it is that doesn't seem logical, at least without more information.

If you used a Throne Room to play a Throne Room, the first one caused you to play the second one twice. If you played the first of those with the Moat, then you get to play the Moat twice. So you draw 4 cards.

At that point you've still got the second play of the second Throne Room to go. So if the only action card available is one of those 4 cards you just drew, then yes, since you've no choice but to play it, BSW acted correctly.

If you were under the impression that using a Throne Room on a Throne Room somehow let you play a single other card 4 times, as many people seem to be, then no, that's not how it works.


No No. I wasn't meaning that the throne room squared. I meant, that I played two Throne Rooms in sequence. And following the process, for the first throne room I played a moat, which allowed me to draw four cards. Then the second throne room kicks in, and I used the cards I'd just drawn to play more actions.

That was my question, and looks like I was correct in my assumption.
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Dan Schaeffer
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anomander64 wrote:
No No. I wasn't meaning that the throne room squared. I meant, that I played two Throne Rooms in sequence. And following the process, for the first throne room I played a moat, which allowed me to draw four cards. Then the second throne room kicks in, and I used the cards I'd just drawn to play more actions.

That was my question, and looks like I was correct in my assumption.


I think you arrived at the right conclusion, but by the wrong route. Or it may be imprecise language causing the problem.

You usually play a Throne Room with one action card, which you then play twice (as if you had played two of it).

So you played TR1 with TR2. This means you treat TR2 as if you had played it twice (TR2a and TR2b), resolving TR2a fully before moving on to TR2b (if there's ever a timing issue).

Now, with TR2a, you play Moat. This gives you Moat1 (+2 cards) and Moat2 (+2 cards). You now have 4 more cards in hand and you still have TR2b to play, with any action you may have (which will of course be doubled).

So it's not the first Throne Room (TR1) that allows you to play the Moat for +4 cards; it's the first iteration of the second Throne Room (TR2a). And it's not simply the second Throne Room (TR2) that lets you play another action, it's the second iteration of the second Throne Room (TR2b).
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Slawomir Krupa
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andylatto wrote:
So I think in this situation you must play an Upgrade, twice, and trash two cards, either Provinces or Golds. And you would gain nothing in return


I think it is not correct. Yes, you must play an action card after the Throne Room (Upgrade in this case), and (what I think was wrong) you MUST trash your 2 Golds to gain 2 Provinces (new) in return. You can't thrash your Provinces (old) becouse there is no better card and this action is impossible to perform.

If you play Upgrade and have only Province in your hand I think that you do nothing.

If you play Upgrade and you have only Gold in your hand I think that you gain Province for Gold.
 
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Donald X.
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Megamaniac wrote:
andylatto wrote:
So I think in this situation you must play an Upgrade, twice, and trash two cards, either Provinces or Golds. And you would gain nothing in return


I think it is not correct. Yes, you must play an action card after the Throne Room (Upgrade in this case), and (what I think was wrong) you MUST trash your 2 Golds to gain 2 Provinces (new) in return. You can't thrash your Provinces (old) becouse there is no better card and this action is impossible to perform.

If you play Upgrade and have only Province in your hand I think that you do nothing.

If you play Upgrade and you have only Gold in your hand I think that you gain Province for Gold.

If you play Upgrade and have only Provinces in hand, you trash one and gain nothing (ditto for Gold, barring cases involving Bridge). You do as much of the card as you can. You trash a card from your hand; it doesn't matter what cost it is. Then you try to gain a card costing $1 more, which maybe you can do, maybe not.

Edit: Well Bridge is not the example there, but you know. Barring cases involving weird things.
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Valerie Putman
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Megamaniac wrote:
You can't thrash your Provinces (old) becouse there is no better card and this action is impossible to perform.

If you play Upgrade and have only Province in your hand I think that you do nothing.

If you play Upgrade and you have only Gold in your hand I think that you gain Province for Gold.


This is incorrect.

1) Upgrade is an increase in cost by 1 coin, not 2 (that's the Remodel). You could not use Upgrade to trash a Gold and gain a Province.

2) You may choose to trash *any* card after playing an Upgrade. You may trash a card for which there is no card that costs one more (for example, you have no 1, 7, or 9 cost cards in the supply but you may trash a Curse, Copper, Gold, or Province). You would then gain nothing.

The general rule in Dominion is that you can make any choice (without having to look ahead and seeing whether it could resolve completely). Once you make the choice, you must resolve it as completely as you can.

Examples:
You can play a Throne Room even if you don't have any Action card in your hand. If you do have another Action card in your hand after playing Throne Room, you must play it.

You can play Smithy even if you have already played so many Villages and Smithys that after shuffling your discard pile you only have 2 cards left in your deck. You must then draw those 2 cards.

You may play a Witch even if there are no Curses left to distribute. You must draw 2 cards (if you can).

When your opponent plays the Torturer after all the Curses are gone, you can still choose to gain a Curse (and then gain nothing).

You can make any choice on the Steward, but if you choose to trash 2 cards and you have 2 cards in your hand, you must trash 2 cards.


Just as the poster above commented that Magic players learn to understand the general rules in order to correctly resolve new cards, Dominion players will be developing this as well--just a different set of general rules.

Just remember...you can make any choice. Once you do, you must complete it fully if you can. Evaluate whether you can "do" each part of a card separately--it's not an all or none situation (though watch for "if" statements).

With these general rules, you can even figure out *why* you Throne Room a Feast and gain 2 cards but you Throne Room a Mining Village and can only trash it for coins once.

They Might Be Developers
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*edit* Ha! Now that is unexpected--Donald beat me to it because his answer was shorter than mine. That never happens!!!
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Slawomir Krupa
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donaldx wrote:
Megamaniac wrote:
andylatto wrote:
So I think in this situation you must play an Upgrade, twice, and trash two cards, either Provinces or Golds. And you would gain nothing in return


I think it is not correct. Yes, you must play an action card after the Throne Room (Upgrade in this case), and (what I think was wrong) you MUST trash your 2 Golds to gain 2 Provinces (new) in return. You can't thrash your Provinces (old) becouse there is no better card and this action is impossible to perform.

If you play Upgrade and have only Province in your hand I think that you do nothing.

If you play Upgrade and you have only Gold in your hand I think that you gain Province for Gold.

If you play Upgrade and have only Provinces in hand, you trash one and gain nothing (ditto for Gold, barring special cases like Bridge). You do as much of the card as you can. You trash a card from your hand; it doesn't matter what cost it is. Then you try to gain a card costing $1 more, which maybe you can do, maybe not.



Thank you. I understand. If I play Upgrade I must trash a card from my hand and gain a card costing exactly 1 coin more than the trashed card. If there are no cards available for that cost I do not get one (I still trashed a card though). Great game BTW.

statonv wrote:

1) Upgrade is an increase in cost by 1 coin, not 2 (that's the Remodel). You could not use Upgrade to trash a Gold and gain a Province.



Thanks. I mixed up Upgrade with Remodel, becouse I play dfferent language version.
 
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Tim Stellmach
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Megamaniac wrote:
If I play Upgrade I must trash a card from my hand and gain a card costing exactly 1 coin more than the trashed card. If there are no cards available for that cost I do not get one (I still trashed a card though).

As an aside, I saw exactly this play more than once in my last game, as a way of getting rid of Curses.
 
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Robert Crawford
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thatmarkguy wrote:
I think the confuusion comes from people who have a Magic: The Gathering mindset., In MtG, for any targetted card, you must announce the target at declaration-time, not resolution-time. You can't throw a Terror on the stack and then, when it finally resolves, choose its target - you must declare the target right when you drop the card. If that target isn't still around when the Terror resolves, you don't get to pick a new target.

Throne Room doesn't work like this, and that's unintuitive to many MtG players. They expect when they play a Throne Room, they must declare what card it's doubling right that instant. And if that card is a Throne Room itself, they'd have to declare which card each of its instances is targetting, right that instant. So they'd have to make said decisions before getting the cards from the first doubled card-drawing iteration.

It goes:
I use throne room A. I target throne room.B
I resolve first instance of Throne Room B. I target Smithy.
I resolve Smithy.
I resolve Smithy Again.
I resolve second instance of Throne Room B. I target that Witch I just drew.
I resolve Witch.
I resolve Witch again.

But an MtG player expects it to go:
I use throne room A. I target Throne Room B, which instantiates two Throne Rooms and thus needs two targets declared NOW. For instance 1 I target Smithy and for instance 2 I target ... nothing, as I have no other action cards (or possibly would be forced to target Smithy again, but it would fail on resolution because the Smithy would be gone by that time; same net effect).
I resolve Smithy
I resolve Smithy again
Second iteration of Throne Room B fizzles because there was no target available at target declaration time (or fizzles because the Smithy it targetted is no longer in my hand).


Of course, this isn't how it works. But play MtG long enough and it's how you expect every targetted card in every card game works.
I've only played a little MtG, but what you just described is exactly how I've always thought Throne Rooming a Throne Room would work! I'm glad to have this cleared up now. Although I'm still not sure if I would Throne Room a Throne Room when I only have 1 other action card (presumably something that lets me draw cards), because of the danger that this thread is about; you are being forced to play some action twice; and you have no way of knowing what action that is going to be.
 
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