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Subject: We Will Bury You - Turn 10 Round 8 rss

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Sean Killelea
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My wife (USA) and I (USSR) were playing our second ever complete game of Twilight Struggle tonight when an interesting question came up.

Due to having the North Sea Oil card played earlier in the turn, my wife had the option of playing a card in the 8th round of the final turn. The final card that she held in her hand was "We Will Bury You" which she wanted to play for the 4 operations.

I have read a lot of errata and there has been a lot of talk regarding this card. The text at issue reads, "Unless UN Intervention is played as an Event on the US player's next round, USSR gains 3 VP."

The issue in this case is simply that there is no next round, right after the play of that card and the associated operations, the game would go into final scoring.

So what happens? Would the Soviet player receive the 3 VP?

We have put our game on hold pending some kind of official ruling, as the ruling would determine whether or not she would play the card in that final round.

This was the question that finally drove me to register for the BGG website

SKilly
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Dave Rubin
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Final Scoring occured before the next US Round. Your wife gets the 4 OPS with no VPs ever being awarded.
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Chris Montgomery
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dirubin wrote:
Final Scoring occured before the next US Round. Your wife gets the 4 OPS with no VPs ever being awarded.


Seconded. Sorry USSR.

Cheers.
 
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Steve Bauer
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It also lowers the Defcon, in my experience it is unusual that the Defcon would be anything other than two at the end of the round. I can think of situations where it would happen but they would all be unusual.

 
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David Gibbs
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I think both the above interpretations are wrong:

"Unless UN Intervention is played as an Event on the US player's next round, USSR gains 3 VP."

Not the placement of the comma. It does not say the 3 VPs are awarded on the next round, it says that unless on the US players next round the US player plays "UN Intervention" as an event, the USSR player gets 3 vps.

So, the US player has no next round. Therefor, the US can't fulfill the first condtion, therefor the 2nd condition happens -- USSR gets 3 VPs.

 
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Steve Bauer
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The FAQ says the We will Bury you's VP effect is resolved between the step where the US player lays down his next action and the action is resolved. It does no cover the case where there is no next round.

The specific case was VP -17, if US responds to "We will bury you" with "Duck and Cover" the VP from We will bury you is rewarded between the play of the card and the resolving of the effect so the USSR player would achieve auto-victory.
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Sean Killelea
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sbauer9 wrote:
It also lowers the Defcon, in my experience it is unusual that the Defcon would be anything other than two at the end of the round. I can think of situations where it would happen but they would all be unusual.



On my final play in an effort for a quick grab at some victory points, I played How I learned to Stop Worrying and set DEFCON to 5. DEFCON had been at 2 since I attempted a coup in Algeria in my first or second action, so my wife had no Military Ops leading into my last phase when I played the card.

It turns out to be a major swing in Victory Points depending on the ruling:

She was planning on using the 4 Ops for a Coup in Soviet Controlled Mexico. That move alone would save 5 VP for the Military Ops. Then it comes down to the success of the Coup. If she flipped Mexico to US control with a 4-6 it would give her Domination in Central America (we both have Presence currently with me having Cuba and Mexico and 5 total countries and her having Panama and 5 total countries). That would cost me 2 VP for losing a BG country adjacent to the USA, and she would gain 2 additional points for Domination plus an additional BG. That would be a 5 point total swing. On a 1-3 it would just be me losing control of Mexico and the 2 VP.

We did a quick adding of the VP in the rest of the world. The game is close enough where if she is able to play the card and flip Mexico to US control she would win by a point (so the 3 USSR VP question from WWBY would quash her chances if they are factored in). If Mexico would end up neutral after the coup attempt I would win.

Ultimately this isn't about winning or losing for me, so I am pretty happy with either ruling. We had a very intense game with both players making some pretty amazing card-plays and it has been an exceptionally fun experience (much better than our first play where the Soviets dominated from the get-go). I really enjoy the dynamic and some of the after action discussions of the game!

Thanks again for the help.

SKilly
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Jay Gauthier
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What sort of authority does that FAQ hold? Is it written or approved by the game authors?

I agree with David Gibbs. As the card states, USSR gains the VP unless UN Intervention is played next action round by USA. Well, UN intervention will not and cannot be played, thus --> 3 VP for Soviets!
 
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Steve Bauer
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Tossy wrote:
What sort of authority does that FAQ hold? Is it written or approved by the game authors?

I agree with David Gibbs. As the card states, USSR gains the VP unless UN Intervention is played next action round by USA. Well, UN intervention will not and cannot be played, thus --> 3 VP for Soviets!


It says "This FAQ has been authorized by designer Jason Matthews and replaces all previous versions of this FAQ. Errata is included along with clarifications." Jason is a regular poster to this site so if he didn't agree with it, he would most likely have said something.

But as I said above it does not fully address this situation so play as you like, that way both the OP and his wife can declare themselves the winner.
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Sean Killelea
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Still hoping for an official answer on this one. We ended up rolling for the coup attempt and she rolled below the 4-6 necessary for this ruling to get her the win, but an answer from the powers that be would be very nice .

I am guessing since this question doesn't seem to have come up before, it is unlikely that I will see this situation again in my upcoming Twilight Struggle sessions.

SKilly
 
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Steve Bauer
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In very few games will the winning score be 3 or less in final scoring.
In very few games will the defcon not be two on the last round.
In very few games will the US get "We will bury you" in their final hand.

Put together it seem unlikely you will ever see it again, would still be nice to have an answer.
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John L
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... And this actually came up in our first game with the deluxe edition last night. I had WWBY as the potentially final US play, and Defcon was 3, and I was unclear whether the 3 VP would be awarded. My gut says they would.

Ultimately, I played the China card instead. US won with 2 points. So, yeah, it can come up and be relevant.
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