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Subject: Ghouls in decline, followed by active Fortified race rss

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GJ Roelofs
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Hi,

My question is the following:
Am I allowed to place a fortess on a in decline ghoul region if I pick a race that has the fortified trait after it?

The text in rulebook says:
"Once per a turn, place 1 Fortress in a region you occupy."

Technically, I would occupy the region with my Ghouls. The rulebook does not state that I have to place the fortress on a region of my active race.
 
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Steve Bauer
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No all the text on the power and the race card apply to that race only, not the player. The Ghouls are not the fortified race and can not be fortified.
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GJ Roelofs
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Ok, thanks
 
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Pieter
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Funny, the exact same question arose in one of our games last night. While the answer given here is what we decided upon, it was not really clear to us. It seemed to be the answer that is most in the spirit of the rules, but the literal interpretation of the rule hinges on what is meant by the word "you". "You" seems to refer to the player, not to the race, but in this case probably the race is meant. Again, the Small World ruleset proves to be rather lacking.
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Dan Schaeffer
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Flyboy Connor wrote:
Funny, the exact same question arose in one of our games last night. While the answer given here is what we decided upon, it was not really clear to us. It seemed to be the answer that is most in the spirit of the rules, but the literal interpretation of the rule hinges on what is meant by the word "you". "You" seems to refer to the player, not to the race, but in this case probably the race is meant. Again, the Small World ruleset proves to be rather lacking.


Again, people prove to be rather willing to blame the rules for their own desire to find loopholes that don't exist.

Section II of the Appendix, page 8 wrote:
Each Special Power badge gives a unique benefit to the race it is associated with.


Seems pretty straightforward to me.
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Dave G
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Flyboy Connor wrote:
Funny, the exact same question arose in one of our games last night. While the answer given here is what we decided upon, it was not really clear to us. It seemed to be the answer that is most in the spirit of the rules, but the literal interpretation of the rule hinges on what is meant by the word "you". "You" seems to refer to the player, not to the race, but in this case probably the race is meant. Again, the Small World ruleset proves to be rather lacking.


Gotta agree with Dan here. What in the world would ever cause a player to think they could do this? It's not the rulebook's fault if people are constantly looking for ways to work aoround the rules. I wish the silent majority of gamers who understood the rules and have had no trouble playing by them were a little more vocal on the boards...the number of people insisting on rules-lawyering this game are causing me to lose my faith in all of mankind.
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mojo shivers
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People trying to get around the rules stems from the same impulse to get money for nothing and their chicks for free.
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Dave G
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mojo shivers wrote:
People trying to get around the rules stems from the same impulse to get money for nothing and their chicks for free.


That ain't working, that's the way you do it.
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Jeff Binning
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Quote:
mojo shivers wrote:
People trying to get around the rules stems from the same impulse to get money for nothing and their chicks for free.



Quote:
That ain't working, that's the way you do it.


Thanks, guys. You've just inspired me to write a song and make millions.
 
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Tony Chen
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Flyboy Connor wrote:
Funny, the exact same question arose in one of our games last night. While the answer given here is what we decided upon, it was not really clear to us. It seemed to be the answer that is most in the spirit of the rules, but the literal interpretation of the rule hinges on what is meant by the word "you". "You" seems to refer to the player, not to the race, but in this case probably the race is meant. Again, the Small World ruleset proves to be rather lacking.


Gotta agree with Dan here. What in the world would ever cause a player to think they could do this? It's not the rulebook's fault if people are constantly looking for ways to work aoround the rules. I wish the silent majority of gamers who understood the rules and have had no trouble playing by them were a little more vocal on the boards...the number of people insisting on rules-lawyering this game are causing me to lose my faith in all of mankind.
Rules-lawyering or not, the rules can be better written. In this case, the players are asked to interpret the rules by the spirit, instead of by the word, because of the poor choice of the wording "you." "You" actually doesn't mean you, but the corresponding race you are using. The problem with this is, when the rulebook has shown that it cannot be trusted word by word, it opens up all kind of problems for interpreting what the rules actually mean in spirit.

Taken by its word, a player cannot move his declined Ghouls on the turn he declines his Spirit Amazons, because it says on a turn a player goes into decline, he does not get to make any conquests. But what if the rules were written just to signify that the Amazons going into decline does not get to move? I mean, does the player mean the player, or the active race Amazons only? If we are asked to use our own judgements to interpret "you" as the race and not the player, what's not to say we might be asked to interpret "the player" as "the active race?"

For many gamers, it is not that we want to rules-lawyer, but that the game requires us to rules-lawyer. We need to rules-lawyer that "you" actually in fact does not mean "you."

Either the rules are written so that we can take everything it says literally, or we cannot. Unfortunately with the Small World rule book, we cannot. You can't possibly write a rule book for which the players cannot take everything literally, and then blame them for rules-lawyering. You can't say, here is a rule that is not meant to be taken literally, and it would be stupid if you actually tried to interpret it literally; and then say here is a rule that is meant to be taken literally, and it would be stupid if you tried to use your own judgement. When the rule book isn't clear and cannot be take literally on all instances, you are asking the players to make their own judgements; and when you ask players to use their own judgements, you are asking them to rules-lawyer the rules you have written.
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Dan Schaeffer
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
Rules-lawyering or not, the rules can be better written. In this case, the players are asked to interpret the rules by the spirit, instead of by the word, because of the poor choice of the wording "you." "You" actually doesn't mean you, but the corresponding race you are using. The problem with this is, when the rulebook has shown that it cannot be trusted word by word, it opens up all kind of problems for interpreting what the rules actually mean in spirit.

As I pointed out, there is a straightforward statement in the rules that "Each Special Power gives a unique benefit to the race it is associated with." Again, no need to seek the "spirit" of the rules -- your Special Power applies only ("unique benefit") to the race to which it's attached.

Quote:
Taken by its word, a player cannot move his declined Ghouls on the turn he declines his Spirit Amazons, because it says on a turn a player goes into decline, he does not get to make any conquests. But what if the rules were written just to signify that the Amazons going into decline does not get to move? I mean, does the player mean the player, or the active race Amazons only? If we are asked to use our own judgements to interpret "you" as the race and not the player, what's not to say we might be asked to interpret "the player" as "the active race?"

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. You seem to understand that the rule for going into decline is very clear:
The rules wrote:
The player can make no conquests during the turn his race goes into decline; his turn ends immediately after scoring!

but then you seem to be saying, "What if the rule means something other than what it says?" That's not a problem with the rules, that's a problem with you wanting to interpret the rules as meaning something they clearly don't say.

Quote:
For many gamers, it is not that we want to rules-lawyer, but that the game requires us to rules-lawyer. We need to rules-lawyer that "you" actually in fact does not mean "you."


No. You simply need to understand that words like "you" do not occur in a vacuum. There is a context. When the rules say "Each Special Power gives a unique benefit to the race it's associated with," it takes no special mental contortions to understand that the word "you" in the description of the Special Power is limited to the race in question.

Quote:
Either the rules are written so that we can take everything it says literally, or we cannot.


That's a false dichotomy. Firstly, it is impossible to take everything the rules say literally. For example, the description of Giants says "Your Giants may conquer any Region adjacent to a Mountain Region they occupy at a cost of 1 less Giant token than normal." It is impossible for you to literally own any Giants, so the words "Your Giants" must be read in some non-literal way.

But the opposite of "read literally" here is not "use your own judgment"; it's "read in context." Just as you understand that the words "Your Giants" mean "The tokens representing the fictional Giant race you have chosen as your Active race for this portion of the game," you should be able to understand that the word "you" in the description of Fortified ("place 1 Fortress in a Region you occupy") applies only to the active race associated with the Fortified Special Power. (I should note that a literal reading of "a Region you occupy" would require you to physically place yourself in or on a portion of the board, which would undoubtedly make your tablemates unhappy.)
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Tony Chen
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but then you seem to be saying, "What if the rule means something other than what it says?" That's not a problem with the rules, that's a problem with you wanting to interpret the rules as meaning something they clearly don't say.

And why do you think I am even considering the possibility that the rules mean something they "clearly" do not say? Because with this rule book, it often does exactly that: say something and mean another.

"You" does not mean you.

Sorcerers can zap only adjacent regions, except when Flying. So does Flying make everything adjacent for that race? No it doesn't do that either, at least not for the Giants attacking from a mountain all across the map. So what makes Sorcerers able to zap any region with Flying? According to the rules, they can't.

You are already interpreting the rules as meaning something that they clearly do not say when you play the Flying Sorcerers correctly.

Quote:
you should be able to understand that the word "you" in the description of Fortified ("place 1 Fortress in a Region you occupy") applies only to the active race associated with the Fortified Special Power.
In other words, I should be able to understand that the rule book says one thing, and mean another. So when the same rule book says,
Quote:
The player can make no conquests during the turn his race goes into decline; his turn ends immediately after scoring!
I don't know if I should interpret that word for word, or use my own common sense. But don't tell me that the word for word interpretation is the "obvious" way to go because clearly, that has not been the case for the rest of the rule book. Maybe, in context, the rules meant I cannot make any conquests during the turn my race goes into decline, with the associated active race.

You cannot blame people for bending the rule by reading it word by word, and then come around and blame them for bending the rules by not reading the rules word by word. In one case, "obviously" it applies only to the associated active race despite what is actually written, but in another, it "obviously" doesn't because of what is actually written? I don't think it's that "obvious" what the rules are trying to say, especially when we don't know whether what is actually written counts or not.
 
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Dave G
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drunkenKOALA wrote:

You cannot blame people for bending the rule by reading it word by word, and then come around and blame them for bending the rules by not reading the rules word by word. In one case, "obviously" it applies only to the associated active race despite what is actually written, but in another, it "obviously" doesn't because of what is actually written? I don't think it's that "obvious" what the rules are trying to say, especially when we don't know whether what is actually written counts or not.


Yeah, I can. 90% of the rules questions on these boards are completely asinine, because people are looking for loopholes instead of trying to play the damned game. Even the huge "Flying Sorceror" kerfuffle was mostly caused by people going out of their way to be confused.
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Dan Schaeffer
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
"You" does not mean you.


"You" means "you" in context.

Quote:
Sorcerers can zap only adjacent regions, except when Flying. So does Flying make everything adjacent for that race? No it doesn't do that either, at least not for the Giants attacking from a mountain all across the map. So what makes Sorcerers able to zap any region with Flying? According to the rules, they can't.


This is a sidetrack, but... Flying doesn't make anything adjacent, ever. It removes the adjacency requirement for conquest.
The Flying rules wrote:
You may conquer any Region of the map
except Seas. These Regions do not need to be adjacent or contiguous to ones you already occupy.

This would include the Sorcerers' zap power, which is a method of conquest. It wouldn't apply to the Giants' attack bonus, which still requires adjacency.

Quote:
You are already interpreting the rules as meaning something that they clearly do not say when you play the Flying Sorcerers correctly.


I disagree. I am reading the rules together. They make sense as is.

Quote:
Quote:
you should be able to understand that the word "you" in the description of Fortified ("place 1 Fortress in a Region you occupy") applies only to the active race associated with the Fortified Special Power.
In other words, I should be able to understand that the rule book says one thing, and mean another.


No. You've cut out what I said about context here. In context you should be able to understand that "you" refers to the player when playing the race with its Special Power. Again, a literal reading of the rules is nonsensical; you are always interpreting them in context.

Quote:
So when the same rule book says,
Quote:
The player can make no conquests during the turn his race goes into decline; his turn ends immediately after scoring!
I don't know if I should interpret that word for word, or use my own common sense. But don't tell me that the word for word interpretation is the "obvious" way to go because clearly, that has not been the case for the rest of the rule book. Maybe, in context, the rules meant I cannot make any conquests during the turn my race goes into decline, with the associated active race.


Please point to any contextual cues that would justify adding those last five words to the plain language of the rules.

Quote:
You cannot blame people for bending the rule by reading it word by word, and then come around and blame them for bending the rules by not reading the rules word by word. In one case, "obviously" it applies only to the associated active race despite what is actually written, but in another, it "obviously" doesn't because of what is actually written? I don't think it's that "obvious" what the rules are trying to say, especially when we don't know whether what is actually written counts or not.


My point is, you don't have to "bend the rules" at all. They are all there. If I'm reading you correctly here, you seem to think that the decline rules say "you may not make any conquests this turn," but it specifically refers to "the player." You have yet to point to any inconsistency in the use of "you" with Special Powers and races, or inconsistency between those uses and any other part of the rules.
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Tony Chen
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So you are telling me that "You may not make any conquests this turn" is obviously different from "The player may not make any conquests this turn?"
 
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Dave G
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
So you are telling me that "You may not make any conquests this turn" is obviously different from "The player may not make any conquests this turn?"


What do you mean by "you?" Are you addressing someone in particular? I'm not sure I follow....I've lost all ability to contextualize your writing, I think you're going to have to be more clear...
 
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
So you are telling me that "You may not make any conquests this turn" is obviously different from "The player may not make any conquests this turn?"


First, since the decline rules as written specify "the player," your question is essentially irrelevant to a discussion of whether the rules are unclear.

However, I will address your straw man and say that the two phrases can be obviously different depending on context. Suppose a Special Power (call it "Inspired") said something like "Once per game, take 3 VP for each Region you occupy. You may not make any conquests this turn." In that case, it would be obviously different from "the player may not make any conquests this turn," because reading the rules provides the context that "you" in a Special Power description refers to the race that has that Special Power. If such a power existed, then a player whose previously declined race was Ghouls would still be able to expand with the declined Ghouls, take the Ghouls' VP, and take his 3x VP for his Inspired active race (which would not make any conquests). And while I wouldn't be surprised if the rules for "Inspired" specifically discussed the interaction with Ghouls, I don't think it would be necessary.




Hmm... could you imagine Inspired Ratmen? Hmm...
 
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Tony Chen
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So when my declined Ghouls attack your Amazons, can my Diplomat Orcs still diplomat the Amazons?

Do I get to redeploy my conquered Elf tokens at the end of my turn, or the current player's turn?

Can I come on anywhere on the board with Flying?

Can I use the zap with the Sorcerers in the first region I come onto the board?
 
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Dave G
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
So when my declined Ghouls attack your Amazons, can my Diplomat Orcs still diplomat the Amazons?

Do I get to redeploy my conquered Elf tokens at the end of my turn, or the current player's turn?

Can I come on anywhere on the board with Flying?

Can I use the zap with the Sorcerers in the first region I come onto the board?


Yes.

End of the current players turn. That's a flat-out mistake in the translation, not an ambiguity.

Yes.

Yes.

And hey, guess what? My group had all the rules for this right the first time we played, just from reading the rulebook. It wasn't that hard.
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
So when my declined Ghouls attack your Amazons, can my Diplomat Orcs still diplomat the Amazons?


Did your Diplomat Orcs attack the Amazons? No? Then yes, they can claim the Amazons as diplomatic allies. Note that the Amazons can attack the declined Ghouls regardless.

Quote:
Do I get to redeploy my conquered Elf tokens at the end of my turn, or the current player's turn?


That's been acknowledged by DoW as an error in the rules. (Though if it were not, it would really rebalance the Elves in larger games.)

Quote:
Can I come on anywhere on the board with Flying?

Can I use the zap with the Sorcerers in the first region I come onto the board?


I think DoW's efforts to "clarify" have caused more confusion than the rules in the case of First Conquest. It would have been simpler to just say that the border Regions on the board are considered "adjacent" to off-the-board races. The rules as written, however, lead to the result DoW has dictated:

Rules for First Conquest wrote:
A player's race deploying on the map for the first time must enter it by conquering one of its border Regions (i.e. a Region adjacent to the edge of the board or one whose shore is on a Sea adjacent to the edge of the board).

This is a special conquest available only to off-the-board races, and it has a limitation: border Regions only.

Flying rules wrote:
You may conquer any Region of the map except Seas. These Regions do not need to be adjacent or contiguous to ones you already occupy.

The first sentence of this description counters the First Conquest border Region limitation. (The second sentence becomes tautological in the context of First Conquest: since you do not occupy any Region, there can be no requirement that a conquered Region be "adjacent or contiguous to ones you occupy.")

The relevant part of the Sorcerer's description wrote:
...that [zapped] Region must be adjacent to one of your Sorcerers'.

When off the board, your Sorcerers occupy no Regions, so they can't use the zap power for First Conquest. However,

Flying rules (again) wrote:
You may conquer any Region of the map except Seas. These Regions do not need to be adjacent or contiguous to ones you already occupy.

The second sentence of the Flying description counters the adjacency requirement for Sorcerer zapping. Therefore, Flying Sorcerers can (by the first sentence of Flying) enter anywhere on the board and (by the second sentence of Flying) use their zap power.

I concede that reaching this conclusion requires careful reading of the rules and application of logic, and that the rules could have been constructed more elegantly to say the same thing. But I don't believe I have had to interpret any part of the rules unnaturally or inconsistently with their plain meaning to get there.
 
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
drunkenKOALA wrote:
So when my declined Ghouls attack your Amazons, can my Diplomat Orcs still diplomat the Amazons?

Do I get to redeploy my conquered Elf tokens at the end of my turn, or the current player's turn?

Can I come on anywhere on the board with Flying?

Can I use the zap with the Sorcerers in the first region I come onto the board?


Yes.

End of the current players turn. That's a flat-out mistake in the translation, not an ambiguity.

Yes.

Yes.

And hey, guess what? My group had all the rules for this right the first time we played, just from reading the rulebook. It wasn't that hard.


Actually, I'd say no on the last one (see my discussion).
 
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http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/391216
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/401678

Actually, guess what? Your group played the last one wrong, just from reading the rule book.
 
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Golux13 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
drunkenKOALA wrote:
So when my declined Ghouls attack your Amazons, can my Diplomat Orcs still diplomat the Amazons?

Do I get to redeploy my conquered Elf tokens at the end of my turn, or the current player's turn?

Can I come on anywhere on the board with Flying?

Can I use the zap with the Sorcerers in the first region I come onto the board?


Yes.

End of the current players turn. That's a flat-out mistake in the translation, not an ambiguity.

Yes.

Yes.

And hey, guess what? My group had all the rules for this right the first time we played, just from reading the rulebook. It wasn't that hard.


Actually, I'd say no on the last one (see my discussion).


Yeah, I was thinking Flying Sorcerors...
 
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/391216
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/401678

Actually, guess what? Your group played the last one wrong, just from reading the rule book.


As Dave noted, he was mistaken.

And thank you for agreeing that the answer is right there in the rule book (though as I pointed out above, you really didn't need to refer to anything beyond the rules themselves).
 
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Tony Chen
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You don't say.
 
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