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Subject: Ok... strapping in with some new perspectives.... rss

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Joshua Love
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With the help of some advice from fellow geeks, and the brainstorming I got to do with System Vector, I am about ready to start working on Armed Legion again. While of course there are pretty much no people viewing/reading this, this is mostly for myself to keep myself motivated to make it.
There are a few mechanics I want to work with and change, mainly the attack/defense system. I should do a poll of some kind to see what people like more, but I keep leaning toward the "one player rolls attack, while the other person rolls defense" kind of thing. I feel it increases player interaction and a little less down time for the players.

I have also Xed the whole Command/Research thing, and replaced it with cards. These will not be randomly drawn either, they will be bought (sort of like RISK 2210).

Also, I don't think I will be doing Income points anymore. This can quickly bog down the game, as you often are getting 15-20 points every turn. I am thinking you will be able to spend a total amount of points every turn, and that's it, rather than having them accumulate.

Anyway, I'm off to mess around with the game again!
 
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Shaun Austin
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Hey, I am not a "no people" !!!
I have been subscribed to this game for a while, I just haven't had any useful input or comments to add.

This looked like a fun game that wouldn't be too bogged down, so I am glad you are addressing issues that would effect that result.

~ Shaun

 
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Andrew Tullsen
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Hey, I'm subscribed too, just waiting for some files to play around with!
 
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David Valenze
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I also am subscribed and waiting for something to look at. The color laser jet printer at work is waiting for the opportunity to do some printing.
 
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Joshua Love
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Oh, I didn't know almost anyone really looked into the game. I know a couple, but that was it. I appreciate you subscribing, all of you.

I am strapping myself in and making some changes to the game as a whole (rather than just tweaking it). I think it will be MUCH more efficient and fast pace, as originally it took a very long time to finish.
I will likely get some good ol' files uploaded by the end of the month, so I hope to hear some feedback so I can make the game to it's best possibility. Thanks everyone for keeping interest!
 
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Christian Sperling
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Hi,
I follow this thread also, with great interest.

FaydeShift wrote:

There are a few mechanics I want to work with and change, mainly the attack/defense system. I should do a poll of some kind to see what people like more, but I keep leaning toward the "one player rolls attack, while the other person rolls defense" kind of thing. I feel it increases player interaction and a little less down time for the players.

If you need some inspiration for an attack defense system, look at this
thread from Ogre:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/35003
This is an alternative combat system for Ogre.

Also interesting is the system from World at War: Eisenbach Gap

Here a unit has a firepower and a to hit number.
The firepower determines how many dice are rolled and the to hit number
determines which number is needed to roll a success.

Another inspiration source is the system from Tide of Iron.
But it's similar to the alternative Ogre system, only with
different ranges.

It's good to hear that you work on this again...

-Chris

Edit: spelling
 
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Joshua Love
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This is what I'm thinking as far as attacking/defending

Two different ways the game could go. First would be similar to the ones you stated above.

Each unit would have a base number that would be the minimal attack/defense number. Then you would roll the amount of dice and add the rolled total to it's base attack/defense.
For example, a Light Tank would have a base attack of 5, while it's dice power would be 2. You'd roll 2 dice, and add 5 to the total. Same works with defense.
I personally am more attracted to this one and I'm currently redoing the units this way. This would allow for some more realistic situations, like Infantry attacking a Tank. Mostly not possible, but could happen.

The second one would be to use a base number system (sort of like in Battletech), where no matter what the unit, you only use 2 dice (6D). Each unit has a base number that you must roll in order to score a hit.
The same would apply for defense as well. This would eliminate the need for tons of dice and the time it takes to total them all up. This would also allow for a much easier record keeping/remembering game, and make researching a bit less tedious.

Thanks a ton for the input though! I really appreciate it. It gives me a lot more motivation to continue working on this project.
 
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Christian Sperling
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FaydeShift wrote:
Each unit would have a base number that would be the minimal attack/defense number. Then you would roll the amount of dice and add the rolled total to it's base attack/defense.
For example, a Light Tank would have a base attack of 5, while it's dice power would be 2. You'd roll 2 dice, and add 5 to the total. Same works with defense.
I personally am more attracted to this one and I'm currently redoing the units this way. This would allow for some more realistic situations, like Infantry attacking a Tank. Mostly not possible, but could happen.


Generally I don't like systems were you must roll a number of dice and add or subtract modifiers. I prefer to roll some dice and see the outcome immediately.

In Eisenbach Gap the light tank from your example would also roll 2 dice, but instead of adding 5 to the roll, only a 5 or 6 counts as hit (base attack of 5).
It's a, let's say refined Heroscape system.

A similar system is used in All Things Zombie (only the base attack number is reversed).

Basically many games use this system (Fury of the Clansmen, Siege of the
Citadel e.g.).

Maybe the system from FotC is a possibility:

You could make your own dice for Armed Legion (or use some d6s in different colors). Something like this:



Some white dice with 2 hit symbols (5-6 = hit).
Some red dice with 3 hits (4,5,6 = hit).
And some black dice with 4 hits (3,4,5,6 = hit),
for the really powerfull units.

Then you could make the values of the units color-coded, like this:

 


In this example the Inf has a low rate of fire and a weak impact.
The Tri-Tank (cool unit btw) has a high rof and a hard impact.

I think this system is fast and effective.

It also works for defensive structures:
Inf in light cover, add 1 white die to defense.
In a bunker 1 red (or maybe black) and so on.

But overall, just some thoughts.

-Chris








 
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Joshua Love
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I personally prefer dice where you do not have any numbers at all, and the actions are printed on the dice themselves. Like a hit, miss and defend. (like Heroscape or M44)
I had always thought of the idea, but creating a bunch of dice for the game on top of making the game it's self is really time consuming... However, I just thought of idea as I sit here replying to you. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. STICKERS. On amazon.com they have plenty of printer sticker sheets, and I'm sure they have them at walmart of the like.I cannot believe I didn't think of that sooner. Jez, and I already remade my Heroscape dice with silly printer paper and varnish.

Ok, I prefer this way, but before my revalation, I had always assumed that creating your own set of dice was way to much for people (or at least me). Good thing your here, sir!

Thanks for the suggestion! Sadly though, I have to go back and redo everything, lol. But it will be worth it. Thanks!
 
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Christian Sperling
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The dice should be no problem, you can also use some standard dice.
Though in hoppy shops there are blanco dice available.

I've also made a basic frame for the units, well,... it's really basic:

Laser Infantry (option to entrench):
Attack 1w
Defense -

Mechanized Infantry (option to entrench):
Attack 1r
Defense -

Laser Infantry (power armor, maybe upgrade):
Attack 1w
Defense 1w

Sniper Squad (can attack Infantry only, move or shoot):
Attack 1b
Defense -

Jump Troopers:
Attack 1w
Defense 1w

Pioneers (can build fortifications and place/clear mines):
Attack 1r (mines only)
Defense -

Light Tank:
Attack 1r
Defense 1r

Medium Tank (maybe upgrade of Light Tank):
Attack 1b
Defense 1r

Heavy Tank:
Attack 1b
Defense 1b

Super Heavy Tank (maybe upgrade of Heavy Tank):
Attack 2b
Defense 1b

Artillery:
Attack 1b
Defense 1w

Hover Transport:
Attack 1w
Defense 1w

Armored Transport (maybe upgrade of Hover Transport):
Attack 1w
Defense 1r

Bomber:
Attack 1b
Defense 1w

Recon Plane:
Attack 1w
Defense -

Fighter:
Attack 1r
Defense 1w

Recon (Jeep):
Attack 1w
Defence 1w

Recon with TOW (maybe upgrade of Recon):
Attack 1r
Defence 1w


Some defense structures and fortifications:

MG Tower:
Attack 1w
Defense 1b

Rocket Tower:
Attack 1r
Defense 1b

Laser Tower:
Attack 1b
Defense 1b

Foxholes (entrenched infantry):
Defense 1w

Fortified trench (Infantry only):
Defense 1r

Bunker (Infantry only):
Defense 1b

Soft units have no armor, therefore no defense die.
Units with at least a little plate have 1w dd.
Units with normal armor have 1r dd.
Units with thick armor (maybe reactive armor) have 1b dd.

Maybe double (or trible?) the dice for attack and defense to get more
varieties.

This "frame" is made without stats for "soft" and "hard" targets.
Only one stat for every kind of target, but I think it's no problem to add it, if you want to keep it.


 
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Joshua Love
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Interesting. I don't know if I will use different colored dice or not, but it's possible. It's a nice idea to only use 1 dice, no matter what. I was kind of thinking a Heroscape type of system, where all dice are the same, but you use more of them. A pretty basic system, but effective for abstract combat.

I do like the idea of different types of dice though. I do not have a hobby shop here in town (I live in a small town), but I could probably order some. We'll see what works. I'll do some test plays and see what happens. Either way, I do like the idea of having the actions on the dice rather than totals of numbers. It feels more more action like and you can get into it more.

Thanks for the framework for the units. It gives a different perspective on the values for each unit.

My main worry, is that you will be able to upgrade and research new things to change the values of all of the units in some way. Using only 1 dice will effect this aspect of the game greatly. For this reason, I do like the idea of using 1 single type of dice for both defense and attack.
Here is a list of Advanced Researches that I've sketched out in writing. I still need to subtract 1 from the list in order to have 20 different Researches.

Advanced Research Facility
Reduces Research number of all further researches by 1.
Cost: 5
Research #: 8

Special Forces:
Effects: Laser Infantry
Gives Laser Infantry + 1 Defense
Cost: 4
Research #: 6

Paratroopers:
Place one Laser Infantry unit anywhere on the board. Player must have at least 1 Bomber in play.
Cost: 5
Research Number: 8

Guerilla Warfare:
All Infantry get 1 extra dice when defending in forests, in addition to the normal forest defense bonus.
Cost: 4
Research #: 6

Camo War Paint:
Light, Med and Heavy Tanks may not be attacked by air units.
Cost: 6
Research #: 8

Inferred Imaging:
Allows air units to attack units with Camo War Paint.
Cost: 6
Research #: 8

Spy Network:
Player gets -2 on Initiative roll number every turn.
Cost: 6
Research #: 8

Holographic Maps
Tanks receive 1 extra attack dice.
Cost: 4
Research #: 8

Tech. Squad
If a Laser Infantry is adjacent to a Heavy Tank, the unit may roll 1 dice. If a successful Defense, the Heavy Tank is repaired and can take 2 hits again.
Cost: 5
Research #: 8

Satellite Imaging:
Gives player an advantage over battlefield, drawing you closer to victory. Player receives 2 VPs.
Cost: 6
Research #: 10

Diplomatic Advantage:
Gives player political power in another Faction. Take away 2 VP from one player, or 1 VP from 2 players. May only be used once.
Cost: 5
Research #: 10

Fortification:
Gives HQ 2 extra dice when defending.
Cost: 4
Research #: 8

Demolition:
Laser Infantry receive 4 extra dice when attacking enemy HQs.
Cost: 4
Research: 8

Improved Reloading:
Light and Medium tanks may attack twice in 1 turn.
Cost: 6
Research: 10

Self Healing Battle Armor:
Mech Infantry get 1 extra dice when defending.
Cost: 6
Research: 8

Anti-Tank Training:
All Infantry are adapt in attacking tanks. Tanks must ignore their 1 dice advantage over Infantry when attacked by your Infantry.
Cost: 5
Research: 8

Ion Cannon:
Your HQ is now mounted with an Ion Cannon.
Range: 3
Attack: 4
Cost: 6
Research: 8

Advanced Tactics (Infantry):
All Infantry move 1 more hex every turn.
Cost: 6
Research: 8

Advanced Tactics (Armor):
Tanks and ATVs may move 1 extra hex every turn.
Cost: 6
Research: 8

High Velocity Rounds:
Artillery units receive 1 extra attack dice when attacking Tanks.
Cost: 4
Research: 8

ATV Overhaul:
ATVs now may carry 2 extra Infantry units.
Cost: 5
Research: 8
 
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Christian Sperling
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I've edited the "frame" with some new thoughts and explanations.

Yes, I also think a 1 die system is sufficient.
And research and upgrade options are easier to handle.
Just change 1 die (from white to red, e.g.) to increase firepower or defense.

Maybe you could include some kind of stacking, up to 3 units can be placed in one hex and can shot as an firegroup, if it's not already included.

The upgrading and research options are really cool...



 
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Joshua Love
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I find that it would still be hard to do, unless I make an "upgrade" dice or something specific to use when the unit is upgraded. Because if a unit is already using the most powerful dice, what will it upgrade to?

Some trouble shooting would be to have a special upgraded symbol on all of the dice, and would only be used if that unit has been upgraded in the area that he is rolling (attack or defense). Once upgraded and the unit rolls this symbol, it is not defendable or not attackable. However, this poses another problem. If a Laser Infantry is upgraded and rolls this symbol against a Heavy Tank, and the Heavy Tank is then destroyed. I personally want to lean toward the realistic and say that under most circumstances, Infantry units cannot easily fall a armored vehicle of any kind (unless he gets a very good lucky roll).

This would advocate for the multiple dice idea. Of course I would MUCH rather have only 1 dice per unit and keep it simple, but not only does the upgrading pose a problem, it's the idea that something that shouldn't be able to destroy something, does on a normal basis. Wow that was a long sentence... Anyway, I will brainstorm some more, but I always try to keep in mind when developing the combat system, that a major focus of the game is to research and develop your Faction the way you want, and to keep it varied. If I undermine the Research concept, it's just another wargame to me. I do love the idea of a single dice-per-unit, but man it's a difficult thing to work with when using upgrades and value changes, while still being fairly realistic...

Maybe if there were 2 dice used it would be more possible. I know it's not 1, but still MUCH lower than the original concepts I had a few months ago (using 8-10 dice to attack using powerful units).
If there were maybe 1 dice for lower power units, and 2 dice for higher ones... It would be a lot easier to work with... hmm...
 
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Christian Sperling
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FaydeShift wrote:
I find that it would still be hard to do, unless I make an "upgrade" dice or something specific to use when the unit is upgraded. Because if a unit is already using the most powerful dice, what will it upgrade to?


A possibility is to give the unit a reroll.
So, white, red, black, black reroll.

FaydeShift wrote:

Some trouble shooting would be to have a special upgraded symbol on all of the dice, and would only be used if that unit has been upgraded in the area that he is rolling (attack or defense). Once upgraded and the unit rolls this symbol, it is not defendable or not attackable. However, this poses another problem. If a Laser Infantry is upgraded and rolls this symbol against a Heavy Tank, and the Heavy Tank is then destroyed. I personally want to lean toward the realistic and say that under most circumstances, Infantry units cannot easily fall a armored vehicle of any kind (unless he gets a very good lucky roll).


Well, even upgraded Infantry can not easily destroy a heavy tank, e.g..
First the Inf must come close to the tank (low range).
Then the upgraded Inf must roll a 4,5 or 6 on a d6 to inflict damage and if they hit the Tank, he can defend with a black die (a 3,4,5 or 6) on a d6.
So, the chances are not that high that a single upgraded Inf can destroy a Tank and even lower with a normal Infantry.

You don't need upgrade symbols on the dice, maybe use some upgrade markers for the units. A bullet marker for increased firepower and a shield marker for increased defense.

And you don't need that much upgrades. A Inf e.g. has a defence of 0, so you can upgrade it 3 times (0, white, red and black) if you want,
(4 times with black reroll) but 1 upgrade seems to be enough.

You are right when you are saying that good defenders are hard to destroy (if I understand you right). That seems to be a problem (but well, at least they have a good defense).

Maybe use some firegroup rules:
If units are adjacent they can form a firegroup. All participating units
have their firepower reduced 1 step.
So, a heavy tank and 2 light tanks attacking an Inf in a bunker.
The attacker rolls 1r (reduced heavy tank) and 2w (reduced light tanks). If 2 hits are scored the Inf in the bunker is destroyed.

FaydeShift wrote:

This would advocate for the multiple dice idea. Of course I would MUCH rather have only 1 dice per unit and keep it simple, but not only does the upgrading pose a problem, it's the idea that something that shouldn't be able to destroy something, does on a normal basis. Wow that was a long sentence... Anyway, I will brainstorm some more, but I always try to keep in mind when developing the combat system, that a major focus of the game is to research and develop your Faction the way you want, and to keep it varied. If I undermine the Research concept, it's just another wargame to me. I do love the idea of a single dice-per-unit, but man it's a difficult thing to work with when using upgrades and value changes, while still being fairly realistic...

Maybe if there were 2 dice used it would be more possible. I know it's not 1, but still MUCH lower than the original concepts I had a few months ago (using 8-10 dice to attack using powerful units).
If there were maybe 1 dice for lower power units, and 2 dice for higher ones... It would be a lot easier to work with... hmm...


Like said, with 2 or 3 dice for powerfull units you have more possibilities. That's clear. It's the question what you want,
more realism or more playability, but well, that's always the problem
when creating games, to find the right mix.
And don't undermine the Research concept, it's great.

Here are options for research with the 1 die concept:

Advanced Research Facility
some economical bonus, cool

Special Forces:
Effects: Laser Infantry
that are the power armor troopers in my frame.

Paratroopers are a great idea (in connection with the bomber rule, superb).

Guerilla Warfare:
So, Infantry gets 1r (maybe 1b, or 1b for Special Forces in Guerilla Warfare) die for defence: 1w for the forest, upgraded to 1r for Guerilla Warfare.

Camo War Paint:
Cool option.

Inferred Imaging:
Nasty, nasty.

Spy Network:
Also a good option.

Holographic Maps:
Just increase the die, red to black, black reroll (or x2?) and so on.

Tech. Squad:
I see, you want to make it with hit points. I would drop this. Instead I would give the units (counters) 2 sides, 1 normal and 1 fatigue side. So, when a unit is hit it's reversed to his fatigue
side and at the end of the turn if Tech. Squads are in reach the fatigue unit can be repaired.
Through a repair roll, maybe 1w die.
So, you can also make Medic Squads for healing Infantry.

Satellite Imaging:
Cool,...

Diplomatic Advantage:
Also cool aspect.

Fortification:
HQs, great. HQs receive 1 black die for defense instead of 1w.

Demolition:
Infantry receives 1b die when attacking HQ (maybe 2b).

Improved Reloading:
Pretty powerfull.

Self Healing Battle Armor:
A fatigued Infantry can roll 1w on end of turn, if successfull counter is reversed to normal side.

Anti-Tank Training:
Infantry can reroll their attack die when attacking Tank units (or just double attack) .

Ion Cannon:
Cool, a big nasty Gun. Attacks the initial target hex with 2 black dice and all surrounding hexes
with 1 black die. Can only shoot every 3 turns (or so), or you must pay credits to shoot with it.

Advanced Tactics (Infantry):
Cool.

Advanced Tactics (Armor):
Yes.

High Velocity Rounds:
In the "frame" Artillery has 1 black die for attack, maybe give them 1 red and with this upgrade
1 black.

ATV Overhaul:
I'm not sure...

Maybe drop the last one.

I'm not sure if the fatigue think works, maybe it slows down the game.
Or just drop the hit point think and also drop the Tech. Squad research option.
Instead you could make the Tech. Squad a regular unit (Pioneers).


But, I'll make a 2 and/or 3 die framework also...

-Chris




 
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Christian Sperling
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Ok here's a framework with multiple dice.
It's similar to the alternative Ogre combat system (my favorite Ogre variant).
Even some stats are similar to Ogre.
With this system you only need 1 sort of dice, d6s with 2 hit symbols. 5-6 = success.
And it's more like Heroscape.

To increase firepower or defense just add or subtract 1 die.
Pretty simple and straightforward (but also somehow realistic).

Laser Infantry (option to entrench):
Attack 1
Defense -

Mechanized Infantry (option to entrench):
Attack 2
Defense -

Laser Infantry (power armor):
Attack 1
Defense 1

Sniper Squad (can attack Infantry only, move or shoot):
Attack 3
Defense -

Jump Troopers:
Attack 1
Defense 1

Pioneers can build fortifications and place/clear mines:
Attack 2 (mines only)
Defense -

Light Tank:
Attack 2
Defense 2

Medium Tank:
Attack 3
Defense 2

Heavy Tank:
Attack 3
Defense 3

Super Heavy Tank:
Attack 4
Defense 3

Artillery:
Attack 3 (maybe 4)
Defense 1

Hover Transport:
Attack 1
Defense 1

Armored Transport:
Attack 1
Defense 2

Bomber:
Attack 3
Defense 1

Recon Plane:
Attack 1
Defense -

Fighter:
Attack 2
Defense 1

Recon (Jeep):
Attack 1
Defence 1

Recon with TOW:
Attack 2
Defence 1

Some defense structures and fortifications:

MG Tower:
Attack 1
Defense 3

Rocket Tower:
Attack 2
Defense 3

Laser Tower:
Attack 3
Defense 3

Foxholes (entrenched infantry):
Defense 1

Fortified trench (Infantry only):
Defense 2

Bunker (Infantry only):
Defense 3

Edit: Maybe you can also use the defense as hit points,
so all unblocked hits are deducted from an units defense power.

 
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Christian Sperling
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Here's another option.

Give units equipped with small arms (Mgs, Lasers or something) 1w die.
There are 2 classes of small arms ( 1w and 2w).

Heavy weapon systems (cannons or something) use red dice (normally Tanks).
There are 3 classes.
1r, 2r and 3r dice.

For armor only white dice are used.
0 die for no armor, 1w die for weak, 2 for medium and 3 for hard.

Here are some example units:

Light Tank:
Medium firepower, so 2r dice for attack and 2w dice for armor.

Heavy Tank:
Good firepower and armor, so 3r dice for attack and 3w for defense.

Infantry:
Equipped with weak small arms and no protection, so 1w for attack and 0 for defense.

Mechanized Infantry:
Equipped with anti tank weapons, so 1r die for attack.

If you want to upgrade your units just add 1 die:

E.g., Tanks with upgraded firepower:

Light tank +1r die, so 3r dice for attack.

Heavy Tank, 4r for attack.

E.g., Infantry with upgraded firepower:
2w instead of 1.

This system is more refined and also allows upgrading rules for units.

Here's the complete list with example units:

Laser Infantry (option to entrench):
Attack 1w
Defense -

Mechanized Infantry (option to entrench):
Attack 1r
Defense -

Laser Infantry (power armor):
Attack 1w
Defense 1w

Sniper Squad (can attack Infantry only, move or shoot):
Attack 2w
Defense -

Jump Troopers:
Attack 1w
Defense 1w

Pioneers can build fortifications and place/clear mines:
Attack 2r (mines only)
Defense -

Light Tank:
Attack 2r
Defense 2w

Medium Tank:
Attack 3r
Defense 2w

Heavy Tank:
Attack 3r
Defense 3w

Gatling Tank:
Attack 2w
Defense 2w

Super Heavy Tank:
Attack 4r
Defense 3w

Artillery:
Attack 3r
Defense 1w

Upgraded Artillery:
Attack 4r
Defense 1w

Hover Transport:
Attack 1w
Defense 1w

Armored Transport:
Attack 1w
Defense 2w

Bomber:
Attack 3r
Defense 1w

Recon Plane:
Attack 1w
Defense -

Fighter:
Attack 2w
Defense 1w

Recon (Jeep):
Attack 1w
Defence 1w

Recon with TOW:
Attack 1r
Defence 1w

Some defense structures and fortifications:

Gatling Tower:
Attack 2w
Defense 3w

Rocket Tower:
Attack 2r
Defense 3w

Laser Tower:
Attack 3r
Defense 3r

Foxholes (entrenched infantry):
Defense 1w

Fortified trench (Infantry only):
Defense 2w

Bunker (Infantry only):
Defense 3w

Maybe this is a better option.

-Chris


 
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Joshua Love
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I am currently headed to work. I will check this out tonight. From what little I was able to read though, sounds like you're on to something.
 
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Christian Sperling
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There are many options to playtest...Phew!
I'll also roll some dice and see how it goes...

But afterall choose the system you really like.
Don't give up and don't rush. If all the suggested systems don't work you can always go back to your first idea (well, I don't think it's the first): 2d6 + combat factor.
It's quite solid.

I deliberated the whole time from were I now this system and now I've got it:Totensonntag
Except that defenders don't roll dice, they have a so called fixed "protection factor".
Maybe this game is also a good inspiration source if the other options
are not satisfying.

So, don't give up and take your time!

-Chris
 
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Joshua Love
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Interesting...I guess this is a time when it would have been good for me to have played actual wargames before, lol. I image that would help this process a lot.

Anyway, I really like the idea you've been going with. This is much more up my ally than totally numbers and adding/subtracting things. I want the game to be pretty big, and I don't want people caught up with counting rather than worrying about commanding their units.

Well, I'll see what I can do about doing a bunch of test rolls and coming up with calculations and chance % for different units. I want the combat to be the most solid element of the game, and the Research needs to work with it just as well.

I really like some of those hypothetical units! The Recon Jeep is a great idea... I'll be including that in the expansion... Hmm...
 
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Christian Sperling
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FaydeShift wrote:

Anyway, I really like the idea you've been going with. This is much more up my ally than totally numbers and adding/subtracting things. I want the game to be pretty big, and I don't want people caught up with counting rather than worrying about commanding their units.

Yes, I agree. I have enough to subtract, divide or trible with my ASL or ATS games. While it makes sense for conflict simulations, I think Armed Legion is predestinated for a fast and effective combat system.
And like you say, I want rather commanding my units.

FaydeShift wrote:

Well, I'll see what I can do about doing a bunch of test rolls and coming up with calculations and chance % for different units. I want the combat to be the most solid element of the game, and the Research needs to work with it just as well.

When I make test rolls for my game concepts I rely on "how it feels",
rather then making calculations (I have not the slightest idea about
probability theory), but of course some kind of calculation seems necessary to make the combat system as solid as possible.

From my feeling the last concept seems to be the best:
After rolling some dice it brings the most fun.
You have the amount of dice reduced without reducing the possibilities
for units and upgrading options (because of the different "quality" dice).
Some values for units must be changed, in all probability, but it's
a very good basis.
And at least the system is also used in Eisenbach Gap and from what I know, people like it very much, just because it's fast and effective.

FaydeShift wrote:

I really like some of those hypothetical units! The Recon Jeep is a great idea... I'll be including that in the expansion... Hmm...


The most ideas for the units come from real time strategie games like
Command & Conquer. E.g.:
Gatling Tank, C&C Generals.
Sniper Team, C&C Tiberium Wars.
Laser Tower, called Obelisk in C&C Tiberium Dawn. (In Armed Legion the
Soviet Laser Tower would be called "The Eye of Stalin"sauron, of course).

Those games are a very good inspiration source...

-Chris



 
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Joshua Love
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The earlier C&C games have always been a huge inspiration for me in general, especially while making this game. I hope that inspiration comes out a bit, while not overwhelming it.

I'll be test playing the game over the weekend with the new combat rules I've outlined. I hope it will go over pretty nicely and I'll be able to make some final adjustments so I can release the game soon.
 
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Christian Sperling
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FaydeShift wrote:

I'll be test playing the game over the weekend with the new combat rules I've outlined. I hope it will go over pretty nicely and I'll be able to make some final adjustments so I can release the game soon.


So, you use the 2d6 + combatfactor system,...
Anyway, it's also a fast, solid and proved system.
I'm pretty excited to try it out and how it plays.

-Chris

 
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Joshua Love
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With a couple test games done, I think the normal base attack/defense value then added to the dice roll worked the best. While I liked the actual battle/combat aspect more with the different attack/defense dice as you where saying, it felt more balanced when the other system, which was a disappointment in a way. It would have been much easier, but when I began to upgrade pretty much anything, I felt as if I was throwing money away on it, and it felt like nothing really changed. As with a base value, you can see the change, and the research changes the base values or that variable, which adds a lot more to the feel of the game.

My last thought as far as why this may be, was this:

If you have 3 different kinds of dice, 1 with 2 hits, 1 with 3 hits and 1 with four hits. If you improve anything, it will either feel to under powered for the time/energy put into it (and to keep track of), or the upgrades felt like they were leaps and bounds higher and threw everything off.

For example, I had the Heavy Tank with a un-upgraded attack of 2 dice that hit 3 times. Upgraded, it had 2 dice that hit four times. That only changes by 2.
As where the other way (base number + variable), you can upgrade the base number by 2 or 3, or add an extra dice to the variable attack. This proved to hit the "just right" itch on my side. While the base values would only upgrade a smaller amount, they are a guaranteed amount, there is no chance involved, while the variable is upgraded by 6 numbers (1D6), but there is a half chance you will get a low number.
In this case, I saw a difference in upgraded vs un-upgraded, while there still being a balance in that an un-upgraded could still defeat an upgraded unit, but have much less chances.
In the other way, it seemed to be a one extreme or another. In addition, if the simple (and I still think the coolest way) way does not work as well, it also requires people to make their own set of dice in many cases, or attempt to remember which numbers on their dice mean what.
All in all, I think it was an awesome idea, and it would work very well for a game with set attack/defense values, but leaves little room for upgrades and changes to be made in-game. While being much more simple and easier to learn, I think the mechanic will fall once people play a couple games and realize that the combat system is off when you start upgrading.

Again, I REALLY thank you for the suggestion, and I really wished it worked as well as I thought it would. I am glad I got to test play the game again too. I should have taken pictures, it's about time I uploaded a couple new ones.... hmm...
 
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Christian Sperling
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FaydeShift wrote:
All in all, I think it was an awesome idea, and it would work very well for a game with set attack/defense values, but leaves little room for upgrades and changes to be made in-game. While being much more simple and easier to learn, I think the mechanic will fall once people play a couple games and realize that the combat system is off when you start upgrading.


Well,...the attack/defense values in World at War (e.g.) are only set in first glance. There are indeed many upgrades and changes, though the upgrades are depicted (mostly) in different combat situations (short, long range).
E.g.: An infantry has an attack value of 2 dice and hit on a roll of
5-6 (2 white). If they shoot at an adjacent target, they hit on 4-6, on
long range only on 6. If they upgrade their firepower with a weapon, they get 3 dice instead of 2.
So, there's much room for upgrades and changes with this system.

But anyway, I see your point...keep it up!

PS: Just to make sure, are you using 1d6 + base value or 2d6 + base value?


 
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Joshua Love
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The variable (amount of dice) number will be no more than 3 in most cases. I think in the case of Bombers, it may be upgraded to 4 variable, with low base damage (as Bombers are high up in the air and inaccurate).
But the amount of dice will be kept fairly low, but some units require a higher variable damage than a base damage due to inaccurate/distance weapons.

I think with the way I want to do it, it will make sense. I can see how it would be a bit of an annoying process, but with all realism taken to mind, I think the idea of having a "at least" amount of damage and "possible" damage.

My main point on this combat system, is I want it to be VERY hard for say a Laser Infantry unit to kill a tank, where a Laser Infantry would have a small chance of being able to dodge the attack, as it's a concentrated shot, rather than spread (like Artillery or Machine Gun volleys). Anyway, I will explain more of the universe in the rule book to allow people to understand specific aspects of the game. The combat section will be included (but otherwise overlooked if it hadn't been brought to my attention).

I will still test play the other way just so you know. I am not totally discarding it. I will play another game or two with it to give it a fair chance, but it just didn't feel very realistic or natural to me.
 
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