Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
29 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Dominion: Intrigue» Forums » General

Subject: Swindler - Totally ruins playing the game on BSW for me. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Fredrik Persson
Sweden
Malmö
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I've only played on BSW with Intrigue so far. Every time the swindler is available it totally ruins the game. When it is there you basically have to buy it at the start to have a chance and then whoever flips an estate with it in the early game loses the game.

The worst thing about the card is not that it is incredibly powerful, it is that it is totally random. A very game breaking combination. As if that wasn't enough it also ruins the feel that you're building your own kingdom since you don't have much control of your cards if you're unlucky.

The effect would have been OK if the card was weak like the thief. It is also incredible random but it doesn't really matter since the card sucks so much. Such a card doesn't really add anything to the game but it doesn't totally ruin the game either.

I'm not really sure why I am posting this. Maybe to see if others feel the same way as me. Maybe to try to figure out what went wrong? Not enough playtesting perhaps? Maybe it was an evil plan to get people to stop playing on BSW since you can just remove the card before you random that much easier IRL.



3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carc >> BSG
United States
Topeka
Kansas
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Since there's only 5 Intrigue cards on BSW you're going to see it more if you want Intrigue included in your supply. It's the same thing with Chapel decks - Chapel showed up more often than in real life because of the weighted algorithm they used for the random setups.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
Plaatsvervangende Schaamte
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
I think there is a post on the BSW forums that tells you how to change the weight of the random distribution. I think you can even remove a card completely, if you so choose.

Re: Swindler. I haven't found it to be that unbalancing. It is irritating. Donald's post about the evolution of the Intrigue set describes the playtesting process for Swindler. I don't agree that it was not tested. If you don't like Swindler, you are really going to hate Saboteur.

Edit: Typo
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Thornsen
United States
Nottingham
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Can you explain how losing an Estate to the Swindler causes you to lose the game? If the Swindler hits an Estate, then you are either getting another Estate to replace it (and the new estate goes into your discard pile rather than back on top of your deck), or you are getting a 2-cost Action card to replace it. Both help your deck, not hurt it.

My only complaint about the Swindler is that it causes the game to end by the 3-pile condition more quickly since cards are constantly being trashed and replaced. Usually the swindler will give the same replacement card to everyone (e.g. if replacing a 3 cost card, give them the crappiest 3-cost card on the table until that pile is empty)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
Isle of Wight
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Faranim wrote:
Can you explain how losing an Estate to the Swindler causes you to lose the game?

Maybe he meant Copper (which you obviously replace with a Curse).

Quote:
My only complaint about the Swindler is that it causes the game to end by the 3-pile condition more quickly since cards are constantly being trashed and replaced. Usually the swindler will give the same replacement card to everyone (e.g. if replacing a 3 cost card, give them the crappiest 3-cost card on the table until that pile is empty)

I actually like this about Swinder, it makes a nice change from the usual race for the provinces.

And also I agree with the poster above, the really annoying card is Saboteur.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ejcarter wrote:
Since there's only 5 Intrigue cards on BSW you're going to see it more if you want Intrigue included in your supply.


Well, Swindler would show up in 10/25 = 40% of standard Dominion: Intrigue games. It's only going to be in 10/30 = 33% of BSW games played with Dominion plus the partial Dominion: Intrigue expansion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Faranim wrote:
Can you explain how losing an Estate to the Swindler causes you to lose the game?


I think he's assuming a 2-player game (common on BSW), and that if you flip an Estate from your opponent's deck when you play the Swindler, that's bad for you.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Payne
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Well, Swindler would show up in 10/25 = 40% of standard Dominion: Intrigue games. It's only going to be in 10/30 = 33% of BSW games played with Dominion plus the partial Dominion: Intrigue expansion.

That's assuming randomset:all, which most people are playing these days, admittedly. randomset:intrige gives the new cards an increased weight (4, IIRC), and randomset:basis doesn't use any of the new cards at all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marshall Miller
United States
Malden
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
The Warren is a roleplaying game about intelligent rabbits trying to make the best of a world filled with hazards, predators and, worst of all, other rabbits.
badge
Marshall is a Boston-based researcher and game designer.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I find it a nice change because it puts emphasis on cards that take coppers out of your deck quickly. Its too bad there isn't a card that puts coppers in others' decks...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
wodan wodan
msg tools
Having Coppers being turned to Curses isn't actually that bad, in fact its less bad than receiving Curses. This is because Coppers rapidly become a negative card that slows down your deck, and changing a somewhat negative card to a very negative card isn't as bad as gaining a very negative card in addition to that somewhat negative card.

Swindler somewhat strong due to it being a 3 attack card that has an often dangerous attack and a good economic ability, but it hardly ruins the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Chen
Taiwan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
I totally agree. The swing of the luck with this card can be so much bullshit.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Hein
Netherlands
Delft
flag msg tools
badge
Ceterum censeo RoboRally esse delendam
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JonPrud wrote:
If you don't like Swindler, you are really going to hate Saboteur.


+1

While the Swindler is mildly annoying, the Saboteur really is gratuitously random and punishing. By far the nastiest card available.

At least the Swindler gives you +2$.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig Somerton
Australia
North Ryde - Sydney
NSW
flag msg tools
designer
Duplicitous!
badge
I don't play to win - I play for enjoyment and social interaction.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Personally, I find the Swindler a great "luck driver" in the game. Sometimes it works a treat, yet other times backfires or does very little.

Sure it does force a real loss of control feature, but then again that's what often makes the game interesting and less staid, and it also works as a real deck-churner.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Branko K.
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the Swindler.

When he is in play, you automatically have to count with your Coppers turning to Curses, so it is in your best interest to get rid of those Coppers ASAP. Also, since Swindler obviously duds on Estates, you can mitigate the danger by acquiring Baron or simply NOT getting rid of your Estates. Once you are free of those zero-cost cards, the Swindler is downgraded to mild annoyance, if that.

I like how now that the Intrigue is out Domionion gets completely polarized complaints - there is still a crowd that cries the game is a multiplayer solitaire with mild interruption mechanisms and now there are people who seem to find the game a bit TOO interactive, what with other players messing with their decks.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Chen
Taiwan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
I am not complaining that the game is more interactive, just that the interaction comes at the cost of a higher variance in luck. I do like the interaction that the Swindler brings to the game. For me, it's a love it and hate it card. I left out the plus side of Swindler because I am saving that for a review.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikael Ölmestig
Sweden
Halmstad
Halland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
JonPrud wrote:
If you don't like Swindler, you are really going to hate Saboteur.

I have a previous thread about those two cards. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/419161
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikael Ölmestig
Sweden
Halmstad
Halland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Faranim wrote:
My only complaint about the Swindler is that it causes the game to end by the 3-pile condition more quickly since cards are constantly being trashed and replaced. Usually the swindler will give the same replacement card to everyone (e.g. if replacing a 3 cost card, give them the crappiest 3-cost card on the table until that pile is empty)

In the game I was playing people were given different cards each time and almost never got rid of a deck. The game took way over one hour to play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jamie Pollock
Scotland
Edinburgh
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I actually like the Swindler and that's because it's just so much fun - to have it used against me or to use it against my opponent. Sure, there's a degree of luck in what card the Swindler reveals, but in my experience the Swindler has rarely been a game deciding card in favour of the person using the Swindler.

For instance, I've watched in hilarity as the revealed card turns out to be a Province and this ends the game prematurely because there was only one Province left in the supply (which the player had most likely intended on buying)! I myself have swapped another player's 4-card for a Thief thinking it to be the poorest choice out there, only to have my Gold stolen later on. Whether it introduces more luck or not for me is immaterial. This card is pure fun, and as often as it really messes with things, it will just as often turn up duds.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David K
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I love it when someone gives me a single chancellor instead of a silver, thinking he's done something really bad. I'm actually glad I don't need to spend the buy phase on a card I would have wanted anyway.

It's great for axing gardens, too.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Chen
Taiwan
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
KhyrosFinalCut wrote:
I love it when someone gives me a single chancellor instead of a silver, thinking he's done something really bad. I'm actually glad I don't need to spend the buy phase on a card I would have wanted anyway.

It's great for axing gardens, too.
Really? Then why did you buy a Silver instead in the first place? Or did you plan on that already? But of course, the idea is that he may give you the second and third and fourth Chancellors.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
I am glad that Johnny Jaws is my friend.
United States
Enumclaw
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
I know who I am. I'm the ant playin' the ant, disguised as another ant!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I LIKE the Swindler. The Swindler will swindle the owner angry if given a chance. I LIKE the Swindler.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zoe M
Canada
flag msg tools
badge
I wear my Halloween costume all year round!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll add my voice to the chorus of people who like the Swindler. Maybe it's not the same online, but playing in person it added a lot of fun to the game. I'm pretty sure the Swindler is the card that got the most laughs. It's fun to minorly inconvenience your opponents, and it's fun when the Swindling turns out to be a benefit. I won one game because someone turned my Torturer into a Duke, thinking it was the least useful, but I eventually got one Duchy and won the game by one point. And it's not really the end of the world to have Coppers turned into Curses; besides, the Swindler comes out early enough that it will hit everyone eventually, so I don't think there's significantly more luck there than in any early draw. It's not nearly as vicious as the Saboteur.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Felix Rodriguez
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
DaviddesJ wrote:
ejcarter wrote:
Since there's only 5 Intrigue cards on BSW you're going to see it more if you want Intrigue included in your supply.


Well, Swindler would show up in 10/25 = 40% of standard Dominion: Intrigue games. It's only going to be in 10/30 = 33% of BSW games played with Dominion plus the partial Dominion: Intrigue expansion.


Sure.. but the more likely set-up among people who play a lot is a merge of sets.

10/52 or 10/50 depending on whether or not you have the promo cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Brown
United States
Summit
NJ
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I haven't decided what I think quite yet, but my last game on BSW ended with 2pts separating the top two positions. The last time around the table (4 players), 2 swindlers were played and both times the player that ended in 2nd place had a copper turned into a Curse. There were no cards to get rid of coppers so you could not even say that the loss had something to do with the different players' strategies. Just plain bad luck. The game, in the end, was decided by the Swindler.

I don't think this will be that frequent, but I was already getting a little annoyed. Then again, it was a card that caused a lot of conversation, groaning, celebration. Maybe that means it is one of the best cards. After all, any time you have 5-7 gold and draw an extra card, some element of luck decides whether or not you will be able to purchase a Province. It's not like luck and randomness are absent from this game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paulo Santoro
Brazil
São Paulo
São Paulo
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I hate Swindler. In BSW I quit immediately if it is in the game.

Dominion + Swindler = expensive UNO

So who likes Swindler is paying too much money for tons of chances. Play dice instead. I rolled 3, you rolled 4, ok, you won. Play Uno. Play Monopoly. Play Candyland. Not me, I like Dominion.

With 4 players is the worst. No time to do anything. You can play absolutely nonsense because your deck will quickly become unplayable anyway. It is unplayable during ALL the game, not only in early games as someone said. If you got to buy a Remodel so you hopefully can get rid of all of these curses, prepare yourself: it will be converted to a Thief.

Have you bought a Chapel? Too bad, you didn't use it yet and now it is an Estate. A Village? Enjoy your Workshop. You would never buy a Council Room? It will be in your deck sooner or later. Didn't you kill yourself before the late game? So what you think about seeing that useful Smithy in a Moneylender?

After all this, enjoy the score:

8 year's old Pachisi player: 7 points
Your grandgrandmother: 6 points
Forrest Gump: 1 point
You: -2 points
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.