Recommend
73 
 Thumb up
 Hide
63 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: I want to be a wargamer. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mary Weisbeck
United States
Black Hawk
South Dakota
flag msg tools
"Blow up the damned ship, Jean-Luc!"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I’m not sure where the desire came from; I can’t explain the need I feel to go one on one, guns blazing, a plan in mind.

My husband taught me to play Risk before we were married and we had a game constantly set up on the dining room table. Since then we always bought a game for the family for Christmas, many total crap but some were fun.

Fast forward to 2003 when I found the geek. I have created a fairly large game collection and driven my family crazy with a constant influx of new games until they have almost lost interest in even humoring me. Among those games (and ones that I enjoy very much) are Memoir ’44 and C&C: Ancients. My husband will play these with me and enjoys them, too.

Tide of Iron was fun but so fiddly with all those tiny men and markers for everything, but the complexity was a perfect fit for my level of experience.

Then I bought Combat Commander: Europe, Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear, Bitter Victory: The Invasion of Sicily, Field Commander: Rommel & Alexander, and made a copy of To The Last Man! This last is what finally has prompted me to write this post.

I had the 1915 scenario of TTLM! set up on my game table to try solo and as I stood there staring at it, I realized that I had no idea what to do with it. Knowing the rules does not gift you with the knowledge of how to use them to implement a plan, to manipulate the pieces, to come up with a brilliant tactic. And yet I think this is exactly what draws me to want to be a war gamer. Most Euro games are, at heart, a math exercise. The lighter ones still allow for a fun time but when I read a post on the strategy of a game which breaks down which moves are optimal because it gives you one more good than any other move, that’s when the fun is lost.

There was a commercial for something during the recent E3 show which showed two guys facing off across a digital gaming table. The table showed ocean on one end and a beach on the other; think D-Day, hmm? The guy on the ocean end waved his hands and a few ships appeared and headed toward the beach. The other guy waved his hands at different areas of his coastline and guns from the bunkers fired away, tanks appeared from hiding and started firing at the landing craft, there may have been airplanes, I don’t remember for sure. When the handful of ships were sunk, the land guy looked pretty pleased with himself. Then the naval commander waved his hands again and the ocean became filled with ships! “Brilliant!”, I thought, “he drew out the tanks and the location of the bunkers; made the other guy waste ammo. Too cool.” See, that’s what I want to do. But I don’t know how to think that way within the parameters of game rules.

Is this something that one learns from experience and experimentation? Is this something I can learn by playing solo? I don’t expect a miracle answer from anyone but if you could just give me some hope, encouragement and consolation, I will continue to dream of being a war gamer; continue to read rules; continue to set up my games and stare at them until some idea strikes me.
56 
 Thumb up
1.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Owen
United States
Norwich
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, experience is the best teacher.

If you have the inclination, reading a bit about strategy can be helpful.

And Jim Dunnigan's Complete Wargames Handbook http://www.hyw.com/Books/WargamesHandbook/Contents.htm has a whole chapter on how to play that answers a lot of your questions.

I think reading about an era you find interesting can also be helpful. Most history0based wargames will make some effort to be authentic.

Still, reading can only take you so far and I think you get the most out of simply playing.
18 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Coquitlam
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wargamer55 wrote:
I think reading about an era you find interesting can also be helpful. Most history0based wargames will make some effort to be authentic.

Even better, get a good book about a particular battle or campaign. For example, if you like the ACW, Bruce Catton's trilogy on the Army of the Potomac is an excellent read, and gives a lot of insight into personalities and strategies of the Eastern War.

BTW, I know a few people who love wargames, but have trouble winning. Sure, they'd love to win, but they're there primarily to relive the battle.

For me and many other wargamers, reliving and learning from battles is our primary motivation.
18 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
the scrub
Canada
Mississauga
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Don't worry about labels. Play what you find fun -- whether it be the scale, the history, the colourful bits -- just do it.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve B.
United States
Southern
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am in a similar situation. I hope to learn from this thread as well...

On a related note, this may not be the same video that Mary refers to but it is very neat:

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2009/06/10/e3-ruse-played-o...

7 
 Thumb up
0.82
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
upfront2000 wrote:
So, that's a long winded way of saying, just try something within your understanding of the rules. Don't focus on using the whole board, just move stuff where it looks interesting, and don't be afraid to make mistakes. If you think it's beyond repair, reset and start again.

Does solitaire develop great play? Probably not. But at least it gets me comfortable with the mechanics so I can focus on enjoying the game and not the rulebook when I do sit down to play with someone.


This is good advice. Especially when learning a new "system", it's important to do this to figure out what kind of attacks work, and what kind don't. Looking at a CRT and figuring out what the odds are is one thing, but seeing a certain kind of attack fail again and again, and another be successful...is much better reinforcement of what you need to do to make progress.

mbourgeois wrote:
The video sounds really cool but I doubt you'll find it anywhere outside of video games for a while. And it would be amazing if you could do such things in a war(board)game or miniatures tabletop battle.


I think I see what you found interesting about the video - a 'feint', as it were, to force an enemy to reveal part of his plan by reacting to a movement you make.

This is actually more rare in wargames than you'd expect, and depends a LOT on available information and scale. A game that covers the entire War in Europe at Army-level scale with all information available is going to be staggeringly hard to make an enemy reveal some part of his plan you couldn't know and need to work around. This almost approaches a Eurogame (the more fiddly, math-based ones) in that setup, planning, and optimizing build/economy strategy wins the game.

Without specific detailed familiarity with TTLM, I can't offer exact comment on your observation about it, but it doesn't quite seem like it has the detail to be able to really simulate feints. Picking a scale with more pieces and more movement allows for a lot more of that back-and-forth dynamic in combat.

(IMHO, the magic number is a scale with 40+ counters on the board representing forces of some size, with a game scale allowing movement of forces fairly spread apart to coalesce rapidly - within a handful of turns. This allows you to allocate enough to a specific task that the enemy might believe it's your "serious offense" and have to react to it, but still leave you enough - depending on how you've allocated them - to be able to take advantage of the information he reveals by his response.)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Bobek
United States
Chicago
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Is this something that one learns from experience and experimentation? Is this something I can learn by playing solo? I don’t expect a miracle answer from anyone but if you could just give me some hope, encouragement and consolation, I will continue to dream of being a war gamer; continue to read rules; continue to set up my games and stare at them until some idea strikes me.


Reading will definitely be useful, so would watching some war flicks. (Band of Brothers, Gettysburg, Waterloo, just to name a few). Have you ever gone paintballing? I found my wargaming experience helped greatly with paintball, but experience with paintball would also be helpful with wargaming.


The easiest (and IMHO still the best) board wargame to learn on is the old Tactics II. Otherwise, I'm proud to say I'm a miniatures man, true and true. Whether you're talking planes, ships, troops, ancients to space, give me the toys, table, ruler and dice and I've got game! The toys have a tactile pleasure that counters can't afford AND they're great eye candy. If you don't have any old toy soldiers laying around and new ones aren't in the budget, you can get by with paper minis (precis sells them dirt cheap). You can download "A Nation Divided" as a free set of minis rules for American Civil War from The Games of War files on this site.
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37718









Ironically, the ladies with whom I've wargamed tended to outdo their boyfriends. One young lady, the daughter of a former student, is now known as "Shelby the berserker!" For a 9 year old, she's one mean orc commander!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Edwards
United States
Everett
Washington
flag msg tools
YA R'LYAH
badge
Phnglui mglw nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah nagl fhtagn! With cheeze!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In a more general way, you can read books on strategy and tactics, or any military history that discusses it as part of the accounts of the battles. This can be somewhat helpful, but it is true that the limits and constructs of the game rules will affect things. Most wargames focus on the battle, which is the interesting part. I do keep reading that in war, managing your supply is actually the most important thing - but that's less interesting to simulate in most games.

Also, as is pointed out, just play 'em and learn. You can play solo, and make some good plans, but - as Helmuth von Moltke the Elder apparently said - "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." Nothing replaces playing against another crafty human!
5 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Benjamin
United States
Los Alamos
New Mexico
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To me, what really distinguishes an Ameritrash/Euro game from a wargame is that I want to STUDY wargames (rules, probabilities, tactics, strategy) whereas I pretty much play Euros for social interactions and then (more or less) make my moves when it's my turn to do something.

With the study aspect, it is really terrific to spend hours playing even 'simple' wargames with another player.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Kovacs
United States
Elyria
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The great thing about making a plan for a wargame is that if it doesn't work, you can (hopefully) make up a better plan for the next game, and nobody got hurt. The application of the correct tactics will usually win the game, but sometimes thinking up something completely different will work just as well if not better.

Reading about tactics will certainly help, and trying them out in a game is even better. It also helps to take stock of what you're fighting with and what the game's objectives are - are you on the offensive or on defense? Do you have a numerical or a qualitative superiority, or neither? Does your opponent favor his artillery or his tanks? Do you attack en masse or do you have to pick and choose your battles? The possibilities in most wargames are endless.

Finally, the best advice is this: Have fun!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
olivier R
France
flag msg tools
Avatar
Making plans and seeing how they unfold is often the best part.

So I'd advise to make a plan, any plan, instead of simply pushing counters around and seeing what happens. It doesn't have to be complicated at all.

Also we all get this little bit of vertigo not unlike a painter with a blank canvas when you look at the map and have to decide what to do, especially with a new game or situation. It is part of the fun really.

There really aren't any hard rules, just guidelines or general principles to follow like :

- fix the enemy from the front and flank him
- surround him if possible
- keep a reserve and commit it at the right time
- reinforce success not failure

Things like that...

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Omar Germino
United States
Schaumburg
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sodaklady wrote:
There was a commercial for something during the recent E3 show which showed two guys facing off across a digital gaming table.

This is that commercial:


sodaklady wrote:
“Brilliant!”, I thought, “he drew out the tanks and the location of the bunkers; made the other guy waste ammo…”

In my opinion, he was a pretty poor strategist. Sure, he discovered the exact locations of the enemy fortifications, but at a high cost in lives, as evidenced by the landing craft shown to have all its passengers killed before even opening up. If he had all those ships and bombers to begin with, I think he would have been better off shelling the coast or carpet bombing the area. But that's just me. Whatever gets the job done, I suppose.
3 
 Thumb up
1.04
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Peter Vrabel
United Kingdom
Cambridge
UK
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
How to be a wargamer in two simple steps:

1: Play wargames.
2: There is no step 2.
24 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
ogermino wrote:

In my opinion, he was a pretty poor strategist. Sure, he discovered the exact locations of the enemy fortifications, but at a high cost in lives, as evidenced by the landing craft shown to have all its passengers killed before even opening up. If he had all those ships and bombers to begin with, I think he would have been better off shelling the coast or carpet bombing the area. But that's just me. Whatever gets the job done, I suppose.


Actually, the soldiers you see collapse were dummy soldiers. That is why his opponent had a look of surprise instead of triumph. They show a closeup of the one dummy soldier to show it was fake and you can hear the wood clanking together as it hits the ground : )

Thank you for the video though. I'm not a war gamer, but that was really fun to watch! :)
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Overgauss .
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I've watched that video several times and refuse to delete it from my drive connected to my ps3. I'm not sure if this is pertinent or not but the gameplay in the video alludes to turn based gameplay but the videogame itself is really a real time strategy (RTS) game.

Suffice it to say I was a little disappointed to find that out.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

1) Sounds like you're like many of us -- wargamers (but not grognards) wandering around trying to find a strategy, too.

2) Just experiment. That's half the fun. What if I shoved all my infantry to his left flank? What if I sent my cavalry in a split charge to surround him? What if, what if, what if? Try crazy stuff and just see what happens. You'll learn what you like and what works.

3) If specific battles don't interest you, you might try more general reading such as Clausewitz's On War (http://www.clausewitz.com/readings/OnWar1873/TOC.htm)
and Sun Tzu's The Art of War. Skim them and see whether they have what you're looking for.

4) Start with a game that doesn't give you info overload. You need to be at a point where you don't have to think about the rules and instead can concentrate on tactics and strategy.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
newsguy wrote:

4) Start with a game that doesn't give you info overload. You need to be at a point where you don't have to think about the rules and instead can concentrate on tactics and strategy.


Do you happen to have a recommendation?

Something in the fantasy category? :)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phil McDonald
England
Staffordshire
UK
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Reading books is always interesting, but the time could be better used experimenting with the games.

Paths of Glory is my only 10 rated game. Intimidating the first time you play it, but only for the first 2 or 3 turns. With each successive turn it sucks you in.

Don't be afraid to just start playing cards and taking your turns. No-one is going to shoot you for real if you make a mistake

If you can't find an appropriate rule quickly, agree a ruling and carry on (make a note of the question). The first play will always be a training game unless one of you is experienced in playing the game.

At the end of the game, go through the rules again, and find all the relevant rules clarifications that you made a note of during the game. You will learn (and enjoy) the game much more the first time f you don't spend 15 minutes going through the rules every time a query crops up. You will still have played 90% of the rules right as long as you read the rules before you started.

Learning the game should be fun, not a pain.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Hughes
Australia
Northbridge
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some strategic situations are just inherently complex; they baffled the historic commanders, who had lifetimes of experience. I think everyone finds these daunting, especially at first.

Some are less so, especially when translated into game form.

The Sun of Austerlitz is a great example. It's quite a complicated game system, and works best with an opponent because of some limited intelligence rules. However, it's easy to play, because both sides really have only one plan. The Allies will retreat, and the French will follow, and eventually a big battle will be fought around Brunn. The kicker is, by the time you get to the battle, you'll most likely have the game system down pat.

Some other paths are so well trodden that the best plans are relatively easy to find. In most Bulge games the US has to hold the crossroads to choke the German advance, buying time for the reinforcements to arrive. Gettysburg day 1 will see Lee's troops driving as fast and as far as they can. The devil is in the detail of course, but figuring out the detail is where much of the appeal of wargames is to be found.

Another way to go is to play games where the tricks of the trade are relatively easy to discern. Many wargamers cut their teeth on Avalon Hill classics and SPI quads. They are dated now, but a few games of say,a Blue and Gray quad will teach lessons about odds-based CRTs, Zones of Control and advance after combat that will last a lifetime
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rusty McFisticuffs
United States
Arcata
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sodaklady wrote:
I had the 1915 scenario of TTLM! set up on my game table to try solo and as I stood there staring at it, I realized that I had no idea what to do with it.

Reading the rules and running through a few turns solo is good for learning & teaching the game, but the fun I've had with TTLM requires an opponent, because the tough choices all come from not knowing where the other guy has concentrated his strength (if you're using the hidden units rules, which I recommend) or whether he has the resources for another offensive. (And with its ease of teaching and limited down time, I think TTLM is a great game for not-quite-wargamer family members.)

Regarding the thing where one player deceives the other player as to his intentions, TTLM with hidden units is especially good for this; the armies on the map may not be moving, but under the covers you're shifting units from one army to another so that you can hit the enemy hard where they're weak. (Block games like EastFront II and Rommel in the Desert are great for this too, although I think those are more complicated than TTLM.) In the process you create weak points yourself, but hopefully not quite weak enough for the enemy to break through, ha ha.

Regarding the "it's set up... now what do I do?" feeling you had, I get that too with some games. (I think I've set up & then put away Fire in the Sky: The Great Pacific War 1941-1945 about three times now...) In your first play of a given game, I think it's reasonable to look at the victory conditions, and then drive straight at 'em, saving more subtle or devious strategies until you have a handle on how to play.

For example, in TTLM, you get VPs for controlling parts of the map, and for eliminating enemy armies; I would focus on the first, and let the second take care of itself. If you're playing the Germans, you can see there are 5 VP available in the north, and 5 in the south, so the first question is, do you want to throw your weight in one of those directions, or split it evenly between the two? That decision will drive a lot of what happens next, and if you choose poorly, that doesn't make the game less fun; it makes it more educational, ha ha.

(One other "now what do I do" thing to keep in mind in TTLM and other games which have supply rules is that killing units by putting them out of supply is always easier than actually fighting them, so keep an eye out for opportunities to do that.)

Any chance you're coming to BGG.CON? There are plenty of wargamers there, and a few of them are even fine, decent people who would happily play a learning game of any of the wargames you mentioned.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Richbourg
United States
Arlington
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
This is Kyoshi, our adopted Shiba Inu.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Definitely, read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War", but not Clausewitz because "On War" is an almost impossible read. Then read lots of session reports on good wargames, to see what other people did and how they approached different situations. Then any other good historical books on real campaigns you are interested in, for example "Panzer Battles : A Study of the Employment of Armor in the Second World War". The more you read and understand tactics in general, the more you will enjoy constructing battle plans (and flexible responses) in games.
2 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Take joy from your wins; take lessons from your losses.
United States
Riva
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
sodaklady wrote:

Is this something that one learns from experience and experimentation? Is this something I can learn by playing solo? I don’t expect a miracle answer from anyone but if you could just give me some hope, encouragement and consolation, I will continue to dream of being a war gamer; continue to read rules; continue to set up my games and stare at them until some idea strikes me.



    In case you didn't figure it out from the video, I'll give you the miracle answer in text right here --

Robert_E_Lee wrote:

Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.


    Lee only shared half of your situation but his quote applies to all of it. You get good at wargames by losing battles. Unlike him, you have the good fortune of risking only cardboard.

    Play play play.

             Sag.


6 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Take joy from your wins; take lessons from your losses.
United States
Riva
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb

    I'll add to this a bit more, since you're talking about the road I'm traveling right now. I enjoy the puzzle aspect of modern euros, but find the crop of the last few years a bit disappointing because they're so restricted, and, as you mentioned above, because I often sit down to them with people that are well aware of the best actions prior to their first play because of their reading here. In a genre where complexity is sacrificed to provide dependable spin-up and play times, it's remarkable how many people further damage their enjoyment by studying instead of figuring out on their own by playing. Not sure why they do that.

    Wargames provide a much broader level of complexity and, because of that, require you to develop heuristic skills, not programmed responses. A seasoned wargamer is as likely to smell the real nexus of crisis on a battle map as she is to calculate it via decision tree. Instead, there is a need for her to open her field of vision across the entire scenario and rule out the broad regions of minimal importance and opportunity by instinct, instead focusing in on the places where she can make real change (or have real change made on her).

    Given the vast number of permutations that a few hundred pieces on a two-dimensional playing field can provide, a wargame is more of a learning tool than a ranking tool -- you take as much joy from losses as you do from victories because of the opportunities wargames provide you to improve your game. This is gaming for self-improvement. This is gaming where the outcome is less important than the journey by a factor of 10 or even 100. In fact victory is often hard to measure short of the gut feeling that remains after the game is complete.

    Fundamentally a different kind of game, and a different kind of experience. I find it vastly more engaging than the intentional simplicity of modern titles, but I'll confess to having a hard time finding opponents. If I'm in SoDak I'll stop by.

             Sag.


9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cindy Nowak
United States
Kenosha
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's always encouraging to find a "new" wargamer - even more so when it's another woman!

I played Risk with my cousins and then got into war games in high school - Tactics II and Blitzkrieg mostly - but then drifted away. I've recently gotten back to board games in general and war games in particular.

I looked at your collection - very nice. I noticed that although you've played Combat Commander, you did not put in any comments. Just wondering what you thought about it? This is the game that hit the spot for me, since the European theatre of operations is the one that got me hooked in high school.

As far as gaming solo - have you looked at June '44 and the others from DDH? (August '44 and Last Gamble: The Battle of the Bulge) Designed to play solo, it has a two player variant. There's also D-Day at Omaha Beach and RAF: The Battle of Britain 1940 that are just realeased as well. Another one to look at, that I had the opportunity to try out at Origins was The Hell of Stalingrad. An intense game that you can 'scale down' to one city or go for all four. Plus, there are both German and Russian solo play variants.

Outside the WWII genre, there is 2 de Mayo. Although I swore I had no interest or desire to play something from the Napoleonic era, this one struck a chord with me.

Some games are easier than others to figure out "what to do". The first time I played Combat Commander I stared at the board and said "Now what?". But after starting play, it all fell into place.

Regardless of what you choose, what matters most is that you have fun and enjoy the game. That and be sure to kick your opponent's ass!
7 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Herron
United States
Johnson City
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Never play block wargames with a dentist, they have those little mirrors to peek behind the block.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Go for it! I would try to find some simple hex/area/or point to point games that have easy to figure out what need to do objectives if you play solo. A House Divided would be a good one to start with. GMT's American Revolution Series, Clash of Giants, & Glory Series are fine ones. MMP Storm Over Stalingrad and Warriors of God are fine introductory games. I play wargame solo mostly due to the lack of face to face players and do enjoy playing that way. I should get into VASSAL but have kept putting it off. The downside of wargaming is like getting hooked on drugs because you want the next game that comes out. I have wargamed since I was in high school in the late 60s and have a huge collection. Welcome and good gaming!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.