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Subject: Storming the Castle rss

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Ulrich Rieger
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Last night we had the following situation:

The Franks moved a strong force to Damascus where only two blocks were defending. The Saracen player subsequently sent in five blocks as a relief force.

During the Combat Phase the following happened:

Round 1: Franks storm the castle and eliminate the two blocks. Saracen relief force is in the reserve box.

Round 2: All Saracens have an Initiative Rating A while all Franks have B or C. Therefore all Saracens strike before the Franks and eliminate the infidels.

Now, the question:

Are the Franks considered to be in the castle and therefore eligible for double defense bonus, or is this an open field battle?
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Sylvain Martel
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I would think they can be in the castle if the choose to since they stormed it and won, but that's a very good question.
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Mark Stadel
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I would say the Franks are in the castle (assuming they don't exceed the capacity of the castle) as they successfully stormed it and took it from the Saracens at the end of Round 1, before the relief force arrived.
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Ulrich Rieger
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I tend to disagree. Consider the rules ver. 1.4, paragraph 7.0 SIEGES:

In a new battle, the Defender may
withdraw some/all blocks to the castle
before combat (blocks are not revealed).
If all blocks withdraw before combat, the
attacker can STORM on round 1 or BESIEGE.
The defender may also withdraw a
block to the castle later, instead of firing
during a Combat Turn.
Once all defending
blocks Withdraw, the Attacker can STORM in
the next combat round or BESIEGE.

Bold markings by me in order to emphasize that this situation is not a new battle because we are in round 2 already. Also consider that until the end of round 1 the other Saracen blocks were holding the castle (to the last man). What do you think?
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R Larsen
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Lebenslicht wrote:
I tend to disagree. Consider the rules ver. 1.4, paragraph 7.0 SIEGES:

In a new battle, the Defender may
withdraw some/all blocks to the castle
before combat (blocks are not revealed).
If all blocks withdraw before combat, the
attacker can STORM on round 1 or BESIEGE.
The defender may also withdraw a
block to the castle later, instead of firing
during a Combat Turn.
Once all defending
blocks Withdraw, the Attacker can STORM in
the next combat round or BESIEGE.

Bold markings by me in order to emphasize that this situation is not a new battle because we are in round 2 already. Also consider that until the end of round 1 the other Saracen blocks were holding the castle (to the last man). What do you think?


But what do you suggest then, Ulrich?

It will be a normal field battle where none of the parts can retreat/withdraw to the castle, but only to the cities they came from before the battle?

Ras
 
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Mark Stadel
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Lebenslicht wrote:
I tend to disagree. Consider the rules ver. 1.4, paragraph 7.0 SIEGES:

In a new battle, the Defender may
withdraw some/all blocks to the castle
before combat (blocks are not revealed).
If all blocks withdraw before combat, the
attacker can STORM on round 1 or BESIEGE.
The defender may also withdraw a
block to the castle later, instead of firing
during a Combat Turn.
Once all defending
blocks Withdraw, the Attacker can STORM in
the next combat round or BESIEGE.

Bold markings by me in order to emphasize that this situation is not a new battle because we are in round 2 already. Also consider that until the end of round 1 the other Saracen blocks were holding the castle (to the last man). What do you think?


But the reserves don't arrive until Round 2 ... at the start of Round 2 there are no defenders in the castle so I would say the Franks occupy it. Just my two cents ...
 
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nolan Guthrie
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As stated the Franks won the town with the storm in round one, so they control the city.
Because it is not a new battle the Franks can't retreat into the city until their opportunity to fire or retreat.
Quote:
The defender may also withdraw a
block to the castle later, instead of firing
during a Combat Turn. Once all defending
blocks Withdraw, the Attacker can STORM in
the next combat round or BESIEGE.

Since the Saracens were all A blocks they fire first and the Franks die before they get a chance to retreat into the castle. Good heads up move by the Saracens in my opinion.
Nolan
 
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nolan Guthrie
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Quote:
But the reserves don't arrive until Round 2 ... at the start of Round 2 there are no defenders in the castle so I would say the Franks occupy it. Just my two cents ...


The reserves come in during round two as the attackers but regardless the Saracens are A blocks so they go first. The rule in question states defending blocks can retreat "before combat". Once the battle has started they can't "retreat" until there turn weather into the castle or to another town altogether.
Nolan

 
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Ulrich Rieger
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Thanks to all! I agree with Nolan: The Franks, if they survive the attack by the Saracens in Round 2, can withdraw to the castle (or to the city they came from).

One other question, though, and this is really for the rules lawyers: Could the Saracen Reserve, since they all have an A initiative, choose to withdraw to the castle in Round 2 (coming through the secret tunnel)? The poor Franks would then again have to storm, hehe!
 
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Niko Ruf
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Lebenslicht wrote:
One other question, though, and this is really for the rules lawyers: Could the Saracen Reserve, since they all have an A initiative, choose to withdraw to the castle in Round 2 (coming through the secret tunnel)? The poor Franks would then again have to storm, hehe!


No, because of the change in battlefield control. The Franks become the defenders if they eliminate all defenders on turn 1.
 
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R Larsen
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Great, clarifying discussion.
Thanks to all!
Ras
 
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Jerry Taylor
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You are right - the rules imply that the Franks would be in the field for round 2 - and thus wiped out by the Saracens in the example provided. But ... we never thought about this particular series of events. Had we thought about it, we would almost certainly have allowed the Franks to be in the castle at the start of round 2.

So your call - play it as the rules stipulate or play it as I would stipulate if I were at the board!
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Robert Buccheri
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This question was asked a long time ago in a Consim World forum. Storming a castle can only occure if the field is emplty and under control by one side. In this case the Crusaders. The Saracen relief blocks cannot roll dice til round 2 of combat, but they are at the battle.
In this case: The 2 Saracen blocks could withdraw to the castle before being revealed and give the field to the Crusaders. combat round 1 ends because the Saracen relief blocks that are present prevent the Crusaders from storming. Round 2: The Crusaders are now on the defense since the 2 original Saracen blocks withdrew. The 5 relief Saracens are considered the attackers and the 2 original blocks could sally out but would have to roll this round of dice. It is important to remember that blocks cannot storm until they control the field.(i.e. no enemy blocks are present).

Edit: Never mind the above. A Battle example on page 5 of 1.4 says that the Crusaders can storm on round 1. If the 2 Saracen blocks are defeated, then round 2 would be fought in the field and the Crusaders could only withdraw when it is time for them to roll dice. This is the case because the battle is ongoing and nolonger considered a new battle under 7.0 SIEGES.
 
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