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Subject: Right leader, Wrong War Or Wrong Side rss

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Robert E. Lee - on the wrong side?

Had Lee served Lincoln from day one, I have no doubt he would have focused on the task of being an effective military and political leader. I see in him the tenacity of Grant, the strategic vision of Sherman, and the skills, of, well Robert E. Lee. My thought is that the ACW would of been over 2 years sooner - had Lee been in McClellan position, the Peninsula Drive would have scored the loss of Virginia and North Carolina for the CSA.


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Ernest Schubert
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That pre-supposes that the Confederacy was the 'wrong side'. Which is arguable.
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kazadvorn wrote:
That pre-supposes that the Confederacy was the 'wrong side'. Which is arguable.


Well... as history is always written by the winners, and the winners naturally claim to be the right side, history will tell you that "the Confederacy was the wrong side"...
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kazadvorn wrote:
That pre-supposes that the Confederacy was the 'wrong side'. Which is arguable.


Not to troll.... No it is not arguable. I hate this crap angry, there is no angle that you can view the Civil War and see the south as the 'right' side. You can justify points of their argument, not the whole. States rights? State's rights to determine slave versus free? The fact that Lincoln didn't free the slaves prior to the war is an invalid arguement. He ran on an abolitionist platform everyone knew he would/should end it (except the south).

The Nazis didn't start killing Jews right away, maybe Hitler was ok until 1942. He had valid arguements about how Germany was unfairly treated? A lot of one sided retrictions passed by the more powerful nations (states) next door, etc... He would probably been seen as a great man were it not for the concentration camps...

I hate to grind.. but this is a hot button issue for me. Revisionism is dangerous. I had a nephew who was going to put a conferate flag on his truck. I asked him what he thought it meant and he said "Freedom & rebeliousness" (our public schools have faid us yet again). I said "What about the freedom for the slaves?". I love him to death but he is a "Rebel w/out a clue".

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teufen wrote:
kazadvorn wrote:
That pre-supposes that the Confederacy was the 'wrong side'. Which is arguable.


Well... as history is always written by the winners, and the winners naturally claim to be the right side, history will tell you that "the Confederacy was the wrong side"...


and sometimes the winners are clearly right.
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Lee was a very capable leader, but he was surround by a much higher caliber of officers than the north. Two years could be viewed as stretch, he would still have had to gut most of the midlevel officers.
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rcbevco wrote:
Lee was a very capable leader, but he was surround by a much higher caliber of officers than the north. Two years could be viewed as stretch, he would still have had to gut most of the midlevel officers.


Consider the impact on CSA morale of Lee's defection though. In any case, my understanding was that the Union had plenty of good midlevel officers, they just weren't well identified as such. I have a feeling Lee, given a free hand, would have quickly put together a very fine force. A few decisive defeats at the hand of their native son? I'm not sure the South would have lasted one year.
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rcbevco wrote:
kazadvorn wrote:
That pre-supposes that the Confederacy was the 'wrong side'. Which is arguable.


Not to troll.... No it is not arguable. I hate this crap angry, there is no angle that you can view the Civil War and see the south as the 'right' side. You can justify points of their argument, not the whole. States rights? State's rights to determine slave versus free? The fact that Lincoln didn't free the slaves prior to the war is an invalid arguement. He ran on an abolitionist platform everyone knew he would/should end it (except the south).


Sorry, but I sincerely believe it was more complicated than that. If you reduce the conflict down to pro-slavery vs. anti-slavery, then sure your point is valid. However, the majority of the (white) population of the 'south' weren't 'rich' slave owners, and they didn't believe (nor would they likely have fought for) they were fighting to 'defend' slavery. Lincoln didn't 'free' the slaves in the existing slave states until a point during the war when he was reasonably confident he would win it. Perhaps he would have liked to do it, would have worked towards it, but the President isn't / wasn't an absolute dicator with unlimited powers. Bottomline, I'm just saying that I believe there are legitimate 'alternate' perspectives on this, even though I may not share them.


rcbevco wrote:
The Nazis didn't start killing Jews right away, maybe Hitler was ok until 1942. He had valid arguements about how Germany was unfairly treated? A lot of one sided retrictions passed by the more powerful nations (states) next door, etc... He would probably been seen as a great man were it not for the concentration camps...


This is simply incorrect. The persecution and murder of Jews began soon after the Nazi's came to power. The 'Kristallnacht' was in 1938. The scale of extermination ramped up as the 'death camps' were established. But the killing and persecution were there pretty much from the start.
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Lee was a very capable leader, but he was surround by a much higher caliber of officers than the north. Two years could be viewed as stretch, he would still have had to gut most of the midlevel officers.
 
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Thank you, Sam.

I don't think there was a right side. Let's also remember that the plantation aristocracy had been more than willing to violate "state's rights" to protect slavery; see the Fugitive Slave Act, the Dredd Scott decision, and the attempt to conquer the Kansas territory for slavery. When Kentucky and northwestern Virginia refused to secede, Confederate armies invaded.
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Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, April 1861 wrote:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.


http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documen...

This is the basis of the formation of the CSA. It is utter evil.
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rcbevco wrote:
kazadvorn wrote:
That pre-supposes that the Confederacy was the 'wrong side'. Which is arguable.


I hate to grind.. but this is a hot button issue for me. Revisionism is dangerous. I had a nephew who was going to put a conferate flag on his truck. I asked him what he thought it meant and he said "Freedom & rebeliousness" (our public schools have faid us yet again). I said "What about the freedom for the slaves?". I love him to death but he is a "Rebel w/out a clue".



Here in Portage? Disappointing.
 
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I saw the title of this thread, and thought I'd join in.

Then I read the discussion so far, and realized that I forgot to bring my marshmallows. I'll be back...
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deadkenny wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
kazadvorn wrote:
That pre-supposes that the Confederacy was the 'wrong side'. Which is arguable.


Not to troll.... No it is not arguable. I hate this crap angry, there is no angle that you can view the Civil War and see the south as the 'right' side. You can justify points of their argument, not the whole. States rights? State's rights to determine slave versus free? The fact that Lincoln didn't free the slaves prior to the war is an invalid arguement. He ran on an abolitionist platform everyone knew he would/should end it (except the south).


Sorry, but I sincerely believe it was more complicated than that. If you reduce the conflict down to pro-slavery vs. anti-slavery, then sure your point is valid. However, the majority of the (white) population of the 'south' weren't 'rich' slave owners, and they didn't believe (nor would they likely have fought for) they were fighting to 'defend' slavery. Lincoln didn't 'free' the slaves in the existing slave states until a point during the war when he was reasonably confident he would win it. Perhaps he would have liked to do it, would have worked towards it, but the President isn't / wasn't an absolute dicator with unlimited powers. Bottomline, I'm just saying that I believe there are legitimate 'alternate' perspectives on this, even though I may not share them.


rcbevco wrote:
The Nazis didn't start killing Jews right away, maybe Hitler was ok until 1942. He had valid arguements about how Germany was unfairly treated? A lot of one sided retrictions passed by the more powerful nations (states) next door, etc... He would probably been seen as a great man were it not for the concentration camps...


This is simply incorrect. The persecution and murder of Jews began soon after the Nazi's came to power. The 'Kristallnacht' was in 1938. The scale of extermination ramped up as the 'death camps' were established. But the killing and persecution were there pretty much from the start.


I stand corrected, but the point about concentration camps wasn't the main focus of what I was saying. Nazi rise to power included anti-semitism but was not the only party platform. Many of the south's geopolitical issues were nearly the same as Germany's. Overarching governments imposition of rules from outide sources. Lack of self determination. These are the kinards parraded around by southern apologists. Just because the non slave holders took up arms is irrelevant. Did every soldier in Germany hate the Jews, I think not. Propaganda can lead people down the wrong path.

To get back to the point of this list:
Lee would be the right general on any side. He was just on the wrong side of history.

Take a minuet and imagine what the world would have been like if the south had won. If you cannot come away with the oppinion that he was on the wrong side, I feel sorry for you.



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Here in Portage? Disappointing.[/q]



No Port Huron. Near the big D.
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Now that my rant is over....

WARNING TOPIC CHANGE!

Erwin Rommel right leader wrong side.
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danweasel wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
Lee was a very capable leader, but he was surround by a much higher caliber of officers than the north. Two years could be viewed as stretch, he would still have had to gut most of the midlevel officers.


Consider the impact on CSA morale of Lee's defection though. In any case, my understanding was that the Union had plenty of good midlevel officers, they just weren't well identified as such. I have a feeling Lee, given a free hand, would have quickly put together a very fine force. A few decisive defeats at the hand of their native son? I'm not sure the South would have lasted one year.


Most likely correct. I didn't take in account the morale loss that would have been HUGE. The purge would have taken some time though.
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rcbevco wrote:
kazadvorn wrote:
That pre-supposes that the Confederacy was the 'wrong side'. Which is arguable.


Not to troll.... No it is not arguable. I hate this crap angry, there is no angle that you can view the Civil War and see the south as the 'right' side. You can justify points of their argument, not the whole. States rights? State's rights to determine slave versus free? The fact that Lincoln didn't free the slaves prior to the war is an invalid arguement. He ran on an abolitionist platform everyone knew he would/should end it (except the south).

The Nazis didn't start killing Jews right away, maybe Hitler was ok until 1942. He had valid arguements about how Germany was unfairly treated? A lot of one sided retrictions passed by the more powerful nations (states) next door, etc... He would probably been seen as a great man were it not for the concentration camps...

I hate to grind.. but this is a hot button issue for me. Revisionism is dangerous. I had a nephew who was going to put a conferate flag on his truck. I asked him what he thought it meant and he said "Freedom & rebeliousness" (our public schools have faid us yet again). I said "What about the freedom for the slaves?". I love him to death but he is a "Rebel w/out a clue".

You're absolutely right, Sam. The "States' Rights" argument is a load of doo-doo. The mostly English-born, wealthy land owners wanted to preserve their way of life. That of an aristocrat. Slavery made it possible. They had money and political power. ACW is about slavery, pure and simple. The Confederates were the wrong side.
 
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danweasel wrote:
Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA, April 1861 wrote:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.


http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documen...

This is the basis of the formation of the CSA. It is utter evil.



Let us not forget that the Union itself practiced this evil as well - slavery - and the industrialized slave - children, adult citizens and immigrants raised not on the plantation with no hope, but the factory tenements, without hope.

Slave holders called their employees 'slaves'. Industrialists called their workers 'employees' - equivalent In Practice condition.

As the Slave was held as property on the land of the holder, so too the employee was held by debt on the property of many an industrialist.
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Industrialism is the cause of its own kinds of evil, no doubt. But not all things are as evil as others: "the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man"

The great evil of slavery was not (just) the conditions under which slaves worked and lived, but the declaration that one kind of man is superior in nature to another kind, that one is by nature inferior, even subhuman.

Even if you do view these two things as morally equivalent, that does not negate the fact that on the particular issue at stake, the South aligned itself with the morally wrong side.
 
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rcbevco wrote:
Now that my rant is over....

WARNING TOPIC CHANGE!

Erwin Rommel right leader wrong side.


Ahem, sorry. New topic.

Rommel was clearly on the wrong side and seems to have been a great general, but it's harder for me to imagine a set of circumstances under which he would have been fighting on a different side than he did. Also, in as large a war as WW2, could the turning of one general, however brilliant, really have a major impact?
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IF he had replace Hitler after the assassination atempt! He would never have changed sides but if he had chosen not to fight, Germany would have felt the impact in 1,000,000 little ways.


How about:

Petain obviously both world wars were not his forte: 100 years war perhapse?
 
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danweasel wrote:
Industrialism is the cause of its own kinds of evil, no doubt. But not all things are as evil as others: "the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man"

The great evil of slavery was not (just) the conditions under which slaves worked and lived, but the declaration that one kind of man is superior in nature to another kind, that one is by nature inferior, even subhuman.

Even if you do view these two things as morally equivalent, that does not negate the fact that on the particular issue at stake, the South aligned itself with the morally wrong side.


Capitalism, feudalism, Aristocracies, Monarchies and all other manner of government does not see everyone as equal as others are. Those conditions were rampant across the globe at the time of the CSA.

It should be noted that up to 1865 and beyond, Slavery was Still Legal in the United States. Should not the Union be equally villianized? Was their goal the noble one of freeing the slaves?

No it was not. In fact, they practiced the same inequalities of white supremacy over the 'savage negro', and wanted to dispose of them, and to not make citizens of them.

It should be noted that at the same time, the USA was busily enslaving (to reservations) and killing off the Natives.

Please, practice some moral relativism - the CSA was not Nazi Germany nor was it unique in the class division and worker exploitation of the entire 'free world' at the time.

===============

The Industrialists were thinking they were entitled to the labors of these people, and to the rewards of that labor - the profit.

Call it Wage slavery or Chattel slavery - the effects on the human condition are the same.

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Napoleon Bonaparte.

Right Leader because he was the best military commander, until 1813.
Wrong war, because Europe was in a state of constant warfare, most of them due to him.
Wrong side, he was a Corsican, he wasnt even french and become Emperor.
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As the Slave was held as property on the land of the holder, so too the employee was held by debt on the property of many an industrialist.[/q]


The "owning' of employees was never a stated goal of the north.
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