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Subject: Perudo, Liar's dice, Pirate's dice, etc. rss

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Hello guys,

can someone please present the differences (rules + components) between those 3 versions of the "same" game...i'm lost and don't know which one i have/want buy

many thanks in advance for your help !
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Jason Miller
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you forgot Bluff.
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Liar's dice comes with a board, perudo doesn't.

Liar's dice has x ones as a lower bid than 2x of any number. Perudo has x ones as a higher bid than 2x of any number.

There are any number of house rules for number of dice gained/lost, special calls and so on, so I am not even going to get started on that. Find your preferred ruleset and stick with it.

Personally, I play with a Perudo set, a liar's dice board I printed from the files section and lose 1 die per call (exact call and everybody else loses a dice).
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Walt
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The differences are dice color and marking, number of sets, dice cup sizes, and rules.

The classic, Spiel des Jahres winner is FX Schmid's Bluff. All dice are "ivory" (more of a cheese color), and are marked 1 to 5 pips and a 5 pointed star, which is wild. It has six sets of dice (30 dice) plus a red die for bidding. It has a board with places for lost (in the game) or unused dice. The dice cups are roomy black plastic. I believe this set is identical to the original Richard Borg US version in rules. (A different US game named Call My Bluff is confused in the Liar's Dice entry.) The current box is black with the red SdJ emblem and the blue Ravensburger triangle--and a cartoon in the center:


Many Liar's Dice sets use conventional dice, 1 to 6 pips (dots, not numerals). I've seen backgammon dice cups, which are too small for five dice. Rules may vary. One version is essentially poker dice.

I think Pirate's dice simplifies the original rules. The star is replaced by a skull and crossbones. I'm unsure.

Perudo has different color dice for different players, so there's no mystery about who has lost how many dice. The dice are 1 pip to 6 pips. The dice cups are also colored and resemble drinking glasses. Perudo has no board, but it's more portable, coming with a pouch. I've heard it has some rule differences, but I'm unsure.
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Perudo is probably my favorite game.
My suggestion is to buy this version: http://www.funagain.com/control/product/~product_id=018665
It has dice in different color which makes it easy to see how many dice each player has.
Rules of this version are exact same ones that can be found on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perudo

There are 2 main variations of the game that I know of. I am not sure about Pirate's dice, but it sounds like a cheesy variant of the main game.

Ok, so the main differences between Perudo and Liar's dice are:
1) In Perudo you lose only one die if your bid is challenged and found out to be incorrect. In Liar's dice you would lose the difference between your bid and the actual situation. So, if you bid five sixes, and it turns out that there are only three sixes you would lose 2 dice. (5-3=2).
Here I prefer Perudo rule because Liar's dice is VERY unforgiving if you try to bluff. While in Liar's dice bluffing is a very dangerous strategy, in Perudo version it is a perfectly viable strategy, because you lose only 1 die, no matter what. So in Perudo, both bluffing and fair bids are equally strong strategies, while in Liar's dice you can't afford to bluff too much, and where is all the fun if you take out that key element of the game?

2) In Perudo, after someone has bid let's say two aces (wilds), your next bid has to be 2x2+1, which means you can bid five of something. In Liar's dice, your next bid has to be 2x2 => four of something.
Here too, I prefer the Perudo rule because their should be a progression of the bids. In Liar's dice it is possible for example that someone bids three aces (wilds), the next player bids six (3x2) fives, and now again 3 aces could be bid if we were to follow the rules. In Perudo no same (or lower) bid can ever be made during the particular round and this makes much more sense. Progression of the bids is what makes the game so interesting and tense.

3) In Liar's dice if someone's bid is challenged and it turns out that the bid was spot on correct, ALL players lose one die except the player who has made that bid. In Perudo only the challenger loses a die as a penalty for an incorrect challenge.
Here again, I prefer Perudo rule because it makes no sense to punish other players who did nothing wrong, so only the (incorrect) challenger should be punished.

4) Some of the version of Liar's dice use a board which serves as a guide for what and when can you bid. This is completely UNNECESSARY! Perudo doesn't have it, and I don't even understand why some people use it!

5) Perudo also has 2 interesting optional rules that the Liar's dice does not: Palafico and Calza. You can find about them on the wikipedia link for Perudo.

So thumbs up for PERUDO!!! (and not Liar's dice)
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Joseph DiMuro
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A rebuttal, in favor of Liar's Dice as opposed to Perudo:

Mislav wrote:
Ok, so the main differences between Perudo and Liar's dice are:
1) In Perudo you lose only one die if your bid is challenged and found out to be incorrect. In Liar's dice you would lose the difference between your bid and the actual situation. So, if you bid five sixes, and it turns out that there are only three sixes you would lose 2 dice. (5-3=2).
Here I prefer Perudo rule because Liar's dice is VERY unforgiving if you try to bluff. While in Liar's dice bluffing is a very dangerous strategy, in Perudo version it is a perfectly viable strategy, because you lose only 1 die, no matter what. So in Perudo, both bluffing and fair bids are equally strong strategies, while in Liar's dice you can't afford to bluff too much, and where is all the fun if you take out that key element of the game?


Seems to me that the unforgiving nature of bluffing in Liar's Dice makes the game better. Where's all the fun if you can bluff big whenever you want, knowing that you will only lose one die at the most? Knowing that multiple dice can be lost each round makes for more agonizing decisions. (It also makes the game go faster; more dice lost each round means that fewer rounds will have to be played.)

Mislav wrote:
2) In Perudo, after someone has bid let's say two aces (wilds), your next bid has to be 2x2+1, which means you can bid five of something. In Liar's dice, your next bid has to be 2x2 => four of something.
Here too, I prefer the Perudo rule because their should be a progression of the bids. In Liar's dice it is possible for example that someone bids three aces (wilds), the next player bids six (3x2) fives, and now again 3 aces could be bid if we were to follow the rules. In Perudo no same (or lower) bid can ever be made during the particular round and this makes much more sense. Progression of the bids is what makes the game so interesting and tense.


Wrong. In Liar's dice, a bid of 3 stars (wilds) can be followed by a bid of 6 fives, but then if someone wanted to bid stars again, the bid would have to be at least 4 stars. There is still a progression of bids, it's just slightly different from the progression in Perudo.

Mislav wrote:
3) In Liar's dice if someone's bid is challenged and it turns out that the bid was spot on correct, ALL players lose one die except the player who has made that bid. In Perudo only the challenger loses a die as a penalty for an incorrect challenge.
Here again, I prefer Perudo rule because it makes no sense to punish other players who did nothing wrong, so only the (incorrect) challenger should be punished.


I don't think of it as punishing the other players. I think of it as rewarding the perfect bidder. Since all players other than the perfect bidder lose one die, they all stay equal relative to each other. Essentially, the perfect bidder gains one die relative to everyone else, and that's it. Seems like a just reward for making a perfect bid.

And if you only have one die left, and you lose it because someone else made a perfect bid? Eh. You shouldn't have put yourself in that position.

Mislav wrote:
4) Some of the version of Liar's dice use a board which serves as a guide for what and when can you bid. This is completely UNNECESSARY! Perudo doesn't have it, and I don't even understand why some people use it!


Eh. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Mislav wrote:
5) Perudo also has 2 interesting optional rules that the Liar's dice does not: Palafico and Calza. You can find about them on the wikipedia link for Perudo.


Eh, I won't argue against this one. But my other points still stand.

So thumbs up for LIAR'S DICE!!! (and not Perudo)
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Sarcophilus Harrisii

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Quote:
Liar's dice comes with a board, perudo doesn't.


Wrong. The boxed board game version of Liar's dice comes with a board. The rules for Liar's Dice pre-date the board game version by many years. Hoyles has rules for Liar's Dice meant to be played with standard dice cups and 5 dice. My father learned Liar's Dice in the Navy during the early sixties so it goes back at least that far and probably longer.

Question: when was the BGG data base changed on this game? It used to be dated 1974 (the board game version was game of the year for 1974) and is now dated 1986. The description no longer mentions Perudo being 16th century and from Peru and a search for Perudo goes straight to the 1986 listing of Liar's Dice. Wikipedia also has a modernist revisionist article for Perudo listing it as being designed in 1988 by Cosmo Fry. The Liar's dice article seems more accurate.

Something is afoot. A plot I think...
 
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Walt
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TrojH wrote:
Seems to me that the unforgiving nature of bluffing in Liar's Dice makes the game better. Where's all the fun if you can bluff big whenever you want, knowing that you will only lose one die at the most? Knowing that multiple dice can be lost each round makes for more agonizing decisions. (It also makes the game go faster; more dice lost each round means that fewer rounds will have to be played.)

And a player-elimination game needs to be fast so people aren't left out of play for long.

TrojH wrote:
And if you only have one die left, and you lose it because someone else made a perfect bid? Eh. You shouldn't have put yourself in that position.

You cannot lose your last die to a perfect bid.

BashiBazouk wrote:
The rules for Liar's Dice pre-date the board game version by many years. Hoyles has rules for Liar's Dice meant to be played with standard dice cups and 5 dice. My father learned Liar's Dice in the Navy during the early sixties so it goes back at least that far and probably longer.

I have two Hoyles, 1961 and 1983. Both have rules for "Liar Dice" which is a variant of poker dice. They do not have rules for Perudo, Bluff, Liar's Dice, or any similar game.
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http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/101779

That is the best thread I think on the differences.
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BashiBazouk wrote:
Wrong. The boxed board game version of Liar's dice comes with a board. The rules for Liar's Dice pre-date the board game version by many years. Hoyles has rules for Liar's Dice meant to be played with standard dice cups and 5 dice. My father learned Liar's Dice in the Navy during the early sixties so it goes back at least that far and probably longer.

The game your dad learned was probably the two player public domain game...From the Liar's Dice BGG description:

Quote:
There is also a public domain dice game known as Liar's Dice. This game is often played with Poker Dice, and differs from the marketed versions in that players only declare on their own hand's value (as oppossed to all dice being in play), and Poker Dice hands are used.



Quote:
Question: when was the BGG data base changed on this game? It used to be dated 1974 (the board game version was game of the year for 1974) and is now dated 1986. The description no longer mentions Perudo being 16th century and from Peru and a search for Perudo goes straight to the 1986 listing of Liar's Dice. Wikipedia also has a modernist revisionist article for Perudo listing it as being designed in 1988 by Cosmo Fry. The Liar's dice article seems more accurate.

Something is afoot. A plot I think...


Don't know about the 1974 to 1986. I know the 1974 rules have a link in the web links section:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thingweblink/7262

The rules are more like the Liar's Dice rules where you also bid on your opponent's dice (but two-player) than the public domain versions (Poker Dice).

As for the history. Perduo still has a link to the Perudo history in the BGG More Information section:
http://www.perudo.com/perudo-history.html


 
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Sarcophilus Harrisii

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Quote:
The game your dad learned was probably the two player public domain game...From the Liar's Dice BGG description:


Nope. It uses the very common leather dice cups and 5 standard dice you will find in most bars and all officer's clubs...The rules as I have learned them, and cross referenced with friends in bars later on fit the description of Liar's Dice but closer to the variations of Perudo listed above. My guess is perudo forked in to various forms of liar's dice over the years, the board game version having added much embellishments to the rules and the bar version having a simpler set as one would expect in that environment.

 
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BashiBazouk wrote:
Nope. It uses the very common leather dice cups and 5 standard dice you will find in most bars and all officer's clubs...The rules as I have learned them, and cross referenced with friends in bars later on fit the description of Liar's Dice but closer to the variations of Perudo listed above. My guess is perudo forked in to various forms of liar's dice over the years, the board game version having added much embellishments to the rules and the bar version having a simpler set as one would expect in that environment.
That is intersting. Like I mentioned...Liar's Dice (Poker Hands) is often played with Poker Dice...but not always, and it is often played with 5 normal dice and dice cups like you mentioned.

I have a Scarne on Dice book from 1945 which describes "Liar's Dice" as a multi player game gaining popularity in the US. It is played with normal dice, but you make Poker Hands. That is also the same game (but for 2 players) described in old Hoyle books as a "two-hand game very popular in Army officers' clubs."

I am interested that your dad played a version similar to Perudo in the Army...what years was he in?

I also first learned a simplified version of Perudo (but called Liar's Dice) in bars in the early 90's. If I remember right, it was like Perudo, but I don't think you could bid aces at all, and there was no Palafico round. It was usually a buck in the pot each game.

After I learned the game in bars, I scoured my game books (no BGG back then) for the game, but I only found the Poker hand versions (multi-player or 2 player) everywhere I looked, so I figured it was a relatively new game at the time (and when I discovered Bluff came out in 1993, and the MB version came out in 1987 by Borg) I figured people just adapted the "Old Liar's Dice" dice and cups to the new "Liar's Dice."

But if your dad played that version in the Army before it came out in 1987 (or the 1974 2 player rules I mentioned in earlier post), then I would be very interested.
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BashiBazouk wrote:
Quote:
Liar's dice comes with a board, perudo doesn't.

Wrong. The boxed board game version of Liar's dice comes with a board.

Oh foolish me, just because the OP referred to buying a game I went and assumed they meant the boxed boardgame.

Clearly it is also possible to build the game with twigs and belly-button lint; in this case your edition will come without a board.

I deeply regret my mistake and bow to your superior wisdom.
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Many thanks to all !

it really helped me thumbsup

in fact, i can buy the "pirate's dice" game and play it as i want...
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Doug Hoylman
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Nobody has talked specifically about Pirate's Dice. There are two substantive differences from Liar's Dice and one superficial one. The superficial difference is that the wild symbol replaces the one instead of the six. The substantive differences are:
1. You cannot bet on the wild symbols only.
2. You cannot raise with the same number of dice but a higher value (e.g., you can't follow "four 3's" with "four 5's"). You have to increase the number of dice.
(Also, the set only has equipment for four players instead of six, and there's no board because it's not needed.)
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Mislav wrote:
Perudo is probably my favorite game.
My suggestion is to buy this version: http://www.funagain.com/control/product/~product_id=018665
It has dice in different color which makes it easy to see how many dice each player has.
Rules of this version are exact same ones that can be found on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perudo

There are 2 main variations of the game that I know of. I am not sure about Pirate's dice, but it sounds like a cheesy variant of the main game.

Ok, so the main differences between Perudo and Liar's dice are:
1) In Perudo you lose only one die if your bid is challenged and found out to be incorrect. In Liar's dice you would lose the difference between your bid and the actual situation. So, if you bid five sixes, and it turns out that there are only three sixes you would lose 2 dice. (5-3=2).
Here I prefer Perudo rule because Liar's dice is VERY unforgiving if you try to bluff. While in Liar's dice bluffing is a very dangerous strategy, in Perudo version it is a perfectly viable strategy, because you lose only 1 die, no matter what. So in Perudo, both bluffing and fair bids are equally strong strategies, while in Liar's dice you can't afford to bluff too much, and where is all the fun if you take out that key element of the game?

2) In Perudo, after someone has bid let's say two aces (wilds), your next bid has to be 2x2+1, which means you can bid five of something. In Liar's dice, your next bid has to be 2x2 => four of something.
Here too, I prefer the Perudo rule because their should be a progression of the bids. In Liar's dice it is possible for example that someone bids three aces (wilds), the next player bids six (3x2) fives, and now again 3 aces could be bid if we were to follow the rules. In Perudo no same (or lower) bid can ever be made during the particular round and this makes much more sense. Progression of the bids is what makes the game so interesting and tense.

3) In Liar's dice if someone's bid is challenged and it turns out that the bid was spot on correct, ALL players lose one die except the player who has made that bid. In Perudo only the challenger loses a die as a penalty for an incorrect challenge.
Here again, I prefer Perudo rule because it makes no sense to punish other players who did nothing wrong, so only the (incorrect) challenger should be punished.

4) Some of the version of Liar's dice use a board which serves as a guide for what and when can you bid. This is completely UNNECESSARY! Perudo doesn't have it, and I don't even understand why some people use it!

5) Perudo also has 2 interesting optional rules that the Liar's dice does not: Palafico and Calza. You can find about them on the wikipedia link for Perudo.

So thumbs up for PERUDO!!! (and not Liar's dice)


Another thumbs up for PERUDO (and not Liar's dice)
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