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Race for the Galaxy: Rebel vs Imperium» Forums » Rules

Subject: Hidden Fortress timing question...... rss

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Hidden Fortress says the game ends when you (the player who built HF) have 14 (not 12) cards in your tableau. If you built HF as your 12th card, which takes precedence, the global rule that building your 12th card triggers end game or HF first so that now you need to build 2 more cards to trigger end game?


On a research note, it was mentioned that if you build a discardable card such as Colony Ship, Doomed World (hypothetically with this one), or New Military Tactics as the 12th card, but then discard it b/c of their powers and are now down to 11 cards in your tableau, the end game trigger still occurs. In this case, it's the building TO 12 that did it, not checking to see you still have 12 at the end of the round.
 
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Rob Neuhaus
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I am pretty certain that if Hidden Fortress is your 12th card, that you still need to go to 14.
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Tom Lehmann
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There is no general rule that *building* your 12th card ends the game. You can build a development for your 12th card, then lose a world to a takeover during Settle; the game doesn't end. Your understanding with respect to tableau discards is incorrect.

There is a round end condition that having 12 or more face up cards in your tableau at the end of the round will trigger the end of the game. The Hidden Fortress modifies, for its owner only, this condition to be 14 or more face up cards in tableau. If that player has 12 cards including the Hidden Fortress in tableau, then the game doesn't end. Powers can modify rules (see the main rules page 4); this is a case of a power doing so. Since this power is not optional, it must be applied.
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From the rules:
Quote:
The game ends at the end of the round (including discarding) in which:
• a player has 12 or more cards in his card tableau;

So it seems clear to me that if Hidden Fortress is the 12 card, it won't matter, because you don't check till the end of the round. (Same with Colony ship or something like that.)
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
There is no general rule that *building* your 12th card ends the game. You can build a development for your 12th card, then lose a world to a takeover during Settle; the game doesn't end. Your understanding with respect to tableau discards is incorrect.

Then I must say that the original ruling (from the base game, quoted above) is a little unclear. This is because the next end game condition
Quote:
* the last victory point chip is given out.
is clearly not fulfilled at the end of a round, so that in my understanding, the game should "continuously check" for any of the two end game conditions to trigger.

(Then again, it doesn't say "a player has had 12 or more...")
 
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Tom Lehmann
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This "ambiguity" is mostly an English construction issue in which the two cases are not exactly parallel. Note the page 7 summary sidebar, which restates this rule informally with repeated emphasis on "*ends* a round" (for the tableau condition) and refers instead to the VP chips having "run out".

Between the two statements, I think the intended meaning is quite clear.

Similarly, in the Timing example on page 8, the discussion makes clear that the act of revealing a potential 12th card in tableau does not trigger the game end, given that a player may or may not activate an already placed Colony Ship in order to pay for it.

If some form of "continuous checking" were used, then you would have a bunch of questions revolving around whether the check occurs after revelation and before payment, etc. By placing the tableau check at the end of the round, these cases can be avoided (though timing issues with respect to player actions can still occur).

Doing so also avoids "memory" issues (where players would have to track game state as opposed to simply inspecting the game state at a single point in time) and allows players to use takeovers to affect whether or not the game ends (which is one of their intended uses).
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Tom Lehmann
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The principle that a mandatory rules modification from a power occurs before applying the (modified) rule also handles the question of whether a player with 11 cards and Pan-Galactic Research can choose to ignore PGR's increased hand limit, in order to discard down to 10 cards and claim the Budget Surplus goal. The answer is no. Same reasoning as the HF case above.
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
This "ambiguity" is mostly an English construction issue in which the two cases are not exactly parallel. Note the page 7 summary sidebar, which restates this rule informally with repeated emphasis on "*ends* a round" (for the tableau condition) and refers instead to the VP chips having "run out".

Between the two statements, I think the intended meaning is quite clear.


I agree that the sidebar clears up the confusion and also that current ruling is the best. I have however silently assumed a 12th card would end the game whatever happened later, so the ambiguity have had its victims. However, such a situation has never occurred in my games to date, and I would have checked more thoroughly if it had occurred.

But I agree on the HF ruling. I look forward to the game when I reveal HF as the 12th card when everybody else assumes this was the last round
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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borgemik wrote:
Then I must say that the original ruling (from the base game, quoted above) is a little unclear. This is because the next end game condition
Quote:
* the last victory point chip is given out.
is clearly not fulfilled at the end of a round,...


Well, suppose it is the end of the round, and during the Consume phase the last victory point chip was given out. A player asks: "Where is the last victory point chip? Is it given out?" The correct answer sure seems to be "He has the last victory point chip. It is given out."

Admittedly, things could be clearer if you were using the present perfect tense ("Has the last victory point chip been given out? Yes, it has been given out") but I'd argue that the rules as written are technically correct. The last chip is either given out or not given out; at the end of the round you check which one of those is the case.
 
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onigame wrote:
borgemik wrote:
Then I must say that the original ruling (from the base game, quoted above) is a little unclear. This is because the next end game condition
Quote:
* the last victory point chip is given out.
is clearly not fulfilled at the end of a round,...


Well, suppose it is the end of the round, and during the Consume phase the last victory point chip was given out. A player asks: "Where is the last victory point chip? Is it given out?" The correct answer sure seems to be "He has the last victory point chip. It is given out."

Admittedly, things could be clearer if you were using the present perfect tense ("Has the last victory point chip been given out? Yes, it has been given out") but I'd argue that the rules as written are technically correct. The last chip is either given out or not given out; at the end of the round you check which one of those is the case.


It is not the is/has been choice that confuses me. It is the *in which* part. But this is just pedantry, and English is not my mother tongue.

So I'll just conclude with saying that these rules are *way more* clearer than most other rule books I have read, and that the iconography works really smooth (after the first hump in the learning curve). Just one tiny suggestion: The new "mix'n'match" explore power is present on many cards, and explained in text on all of them. I would like to see more art, and less text, so if there is a new common power in the next expansion: explain it in the rules only and drop the text from the cards! (Of course, with powers of single occurrences it is nice to have reminder text on the card itself.)

Thanks for a great game!

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