Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
43 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Dominion: Intrigue» Forums » Rules

Subject: Tribute - Should it be an attack card? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Tom Mechler
United States
Essex Junction
Vermont
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We've now played a few games of intrigue and the Tribute card seems a little over powered.

For a 5 cost card you get +4 treasure or +2 cards and +2 treasure and so on. But you also force your opponent to move 2 cards into their discard.

It seems to me that if Tribute was classified as an attack card you could use a Moat ro Secret Room to counter it and it would be a little more balanced.

Opinions?

Thanks,
Tom in VT
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Sargent
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
Festival costs five and gives you two coins, two actions, and a buy. Tribute just gives you two coins and two actions (sometimes). Tribute is like a Festival with a higher degree of randomness. Sure it can give you four coins, but it can also give you two coins, or four actions when you don't need them.

I don't see how forcing a player to discard from their deck hurts them at all.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Sitz
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, one of the guys who was playing in one of our first Intrigue games complained about this too, but I think he's full of it. Sure, it could flip over your first Gold that you just bought, but it might also send your curses or two coppers over so you don't have to draw them and the Tribute player just gets 2 coins.

I've heard some people actually say that it's helpful to have someone play Tribute on you, because it helps cycle through your deck more quickly so you can get to your newer, more powerful buys.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jexik wrote:
I've heard some people actually say that it's helpful to have someone play Tribute on you, because it helps cycle through your deck more quickly so you can get to your newer, more powerful buys.


Yeah. It can vary a little bit depending on the deck and game dynamics, but, in general, discarding cards from your deck to your discard pile is a plus, as long as they are randomly selected.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drew Spencer
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jexik wrote:
I've heard some people actually say that it's helpful to have someone play Tribute on you, because it helps cycle through your deck more quickly so you can get to your newer, more powerful buys.


Provided you're at a stage in the game where your deck is getting better and not worse, it does seem like it will help the player to your left more often than hurt them. Obviously this will depend on the situation, and later in the game when players are buying a lot of VP cards it will be more likely to hurt them, but on the balance it looks like it helps them.

It's not overpowered.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Mechler
United States
Essex Junction
Vermont
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the opinions guys.

I like the comparison to Festival. I'll have to give it a few more games. It just happened in the games we played that it always seems to really rock.

It seems that Intrigue games we play are scoring higher in general. Could be all the new hybrid greens.

Tom in VT
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Travis Cooper
United States
Salt Lake City
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I think the tribute is a very strong card, but I don't like to use the word over powerful. I especially love it when those dual vp cards show up. I think the reason it isn't an attack card is because it doesn't affect all players, just one. I like it how it is, although everybody I've played with it has commented on how it is good, if they use it, or how bad it is, if they get hit by it a lot.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikael Ölmestig
Sweden
Halmstad
Halland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
There are two things that I didn't catch at first and that is that if both are the same card, you only get bonuses for the first one and you don't get anything from curse cards since they are not victory cards. I still think it is good, but there are probably other 5 cost cards I would generally buy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jennifer Schlickbernd
United States
Santa Clarita
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The only time it's an 'attack' is if the person subject to the Tribute has scouted their deck. Then it could be a real problem for them.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Daley
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
monkeyboy157 wrote:
I think the tribute is a very strong card, but I don't like to use the word over powerful. I especially love it when those dual vp cards show up. I think the reason it isn't an attack card is because it doesn't affect all players, just one. I like it how it is, although everybody I've played with it has commented on how it is good, if they use it, or how bad it is, if they get hit by it a lot.

Oh hell yeah. Player to the left flips a Harem and a Silver, you are getting +4 coins and 2 cards - I've seen this and it's awesome!

Mind you, to the point that it could be considered an attack card - I like this a lot, even though it's not in the well-tested rules. You have a defense, you can choose to use it (thereby forcing the player on YOUR left to flip), or choose to flip two yourself. Using this with the likes of the SCOUT could add possibilities.

Who knows though - this might already be in Seaside.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikael Ölmestig
Sweden
Halmstad
Halland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
jschlickbernd wrote:
The only time it's an 'attack' is if the person subject to the Tribute has scouted their deck. Then it could be a real problem for them.

I guess you mean Secret Chamber. The cards you scout (or use courtyard for) are picked up at the end of your turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Daley
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, you are correct there.

That is one thing I have learned from playing ONLY the new set of cards : what it feels like to learn this game.

I have taught a LOT of people to play Dominion, and I know they say it can be a bit baffling, but I forget just HOW baffling it can be - probably because with just a glance at their played cards - be it 2 or 7 cards - I can tell if they have any actions left, how many buys they have, how many extra coins etc. I just know the cards and what they do inside and out.

Intrigue has put me back in THEIR shoes. I still struggle to remember what each card does - not even including how they interact with other cards !
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
Plaatsvervangende Schaamte
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
monkeyboy157 wrote:
I think the reason it isn't an attack card is because it doesn't affect all players, just one.


Wasn't it mentioned in one of Donald's posts that it wasn't an attack because they couldn't find a reasonable way for it to interact with Moat?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Payne
United Kingdom
Bristol
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
JonPrud wrote:
monkeyboy157 wrote:
I think the reason it isn't an attack card is because it doesn't affect all players, just one.

Wasn't it mentioned in one of Donald's posts that it wasn't an attack because they couldn't find a reasonable way for it to interact with Moat?

That was Masquerade. But I think the same logic applies here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jennifer Schlickbernd
United States
Santa Clarita
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
godfeather wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
The only time it's an 'attack' is if the person subject to the Tribute has scouted their deck. Then it could be a real problem for them.

I guess you mean Secret Chamber. The cards you scout (or use courtyard for) are picked up at the end of your turn.


Huh? The cards you scout for that aren't VP's are put back on top of your deck. Read the card please
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe Rickard
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jschlickbernd wrote:
godfeather wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
The only time it's an 'attack' is if the person subject to the Tribute has scouted their deck. Then it could be a real problem for them.

I guess you mean Secret Chamber. The cards you scout (or use courtyard for) are picked up at the end of your turn.


Huh? The cards you scout for that aren't VP's are put back on top of your deck. Read the card please



My original response was a little mean. But what he said is correct so you shouldn't be correcting him. When you use the scout any card put back on top of the deck will be drawn by the end of your turn so can't be affected by the Tribute.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jennifer Schlickbernd
United States
Santa Clarita
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
quartersmostly wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
godfeather wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
The only time it's an 'attack' is if the person subject to the Tribute has scouted their deck. Then it could be a real problem for them.

I guess you mean Secret Chamber. The cards you scout (or use courtyard for) are picked up at the end of your turn.


Huh? The cards you scout for that aren't VP's are put back on top of your deck. Read the card please



My original response was a little mean. But what he said is correct so you shouldn't be correcting him. When you use the scout any card put back on top of the deck will be drawn by the end of your turn so can't be affected by the Tribute.


When he said 'picked up' I took that to mean that the cards that you played are 'picked up' as in what you do during the 'clean up' phase. And since those cards don't go into your hand directly as part of playing the Scout, I didn't associate it that way. Sorry for the correction of a correction.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Leesch
United States
Buffalo Grove
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Back to the OP, though. There is a logistical reason why the Tribute cannot be counted as an attack. Since it only affects one person (the players left-hand opponent), a moat would be a devastating play on it.

I play a Tribute, Jane responds with a moat. I'm out an action, and nothing happens. This would be only the second way yet devised in the game for an action to be an outright waste, and the other would be to play a Thief and have EVERYONE ELSE at the table simultaneously have drawn a Moat. In a three player game, this is rare, and in a four player game even more so. And you can argue that since the Thief's only role at the time of play is to harm other players, (any added benefit to my deck is delayed as long as it takes me to shuffle) this is an acceptable outcome. Not so with the more expensive Tribute, which many players will be buying as a form of flexible Festival/Laboratory in order to provide value to their current turn's play.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mikael Ölmestig
Sweden
Halmstad
Halland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
Well, there is a third one too, same as thief but with a saboteur.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Donald X.
United States
flag msg tools
designer
Here's how I see it.

1) Making your opponent discard the top 2 cards of their deck is often going to help them very slightly. It's not much of an attack for sure. If it were an attack, that would look odd without changing much else (same as for Council Room, which you would still Moat once in a blue moon if you could).

2) Moat is under no obligation to stop everything bad from happening to you. "Buy the last Province." "Moat that." No. Moat stops attacks, attacks are things that say attack on the bottom line, that's it.

3) There are lots of ways to defend against attacks; Moat often isn't the best way. Try refusing to play Moat, and see what you come up with! I would give an example for Tribute, but since it doesn't hurt you there's nothing you need to do to defend against it. I guess there's, you can prolong the time period in which you're happy being Chancellor'd, by putting off buying victory cards. Build one of those decks that builds up longer but then buys multiple victory cards at once. A Council Room deck for example. Then when you play Council Room other people can complain that they can't Moat it, and the circle will be complete.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Montgomery
msg tools
Why does a card only qualify to be an Attack card if it affects all other players? Let's suppose I introduce the Defiler card. This card let's me choose a player, and that player must trash a card from his hand. By the definition in this thread, that would not be an attack.

The Tribute should be an Attack card because it affects another player. I recognize there is a chance that a duplicate card might be overturned, but I submit it's more likely that two different cards would be turned up from the middle of the game on. It's only beneficial to the victim (I use "victim" because Tribute is obviously an attack) when I overturn two Victory cards, and possibly Copper later in the game.

I like the ninja smiley.

ninja
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
montgoew wrote:
Let's suppose I introduce the Defiler card. This card let's me choose a player, and that player must trash a card from his hand. By the definition in this thread, that would not be an attack.


Donald will never put that card in the game, so it doesn't matter what you call it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
montgoew wrote:
It's only beneficial to the victim (I use "victim" because Tribute is obviously an attack) when I overturn two Victory cards, and possibly Copper later in the game.


You're wrong here. Usually, whenever you turn over random cards from a player's deck, it's beneficial, because it helps him get to newly purchased cards faster---they tend to be more powerful, as decks generally improves over time.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
P.D. Magnus
United States
Albany
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
montgoew wrote:
...I use "victim" because Tribute is obviously an attack...


One way to think about it is this: Imagine that there is a neutral stack of cards used for randomizing the tribute result. Would someone play Tribute even though it wouldn't effect other players at all? I would, because the bonuses are good. I can't say the same for any of the other attacks. I wouldn't bother to play a Saboteur or Thief in such a sitation. I would play a Witch, just as I would after all the Curses are gone, but only if I already had it in my deck - I certainly wouldn't buy one.

In short, Tribute is just as good without the cards coming from your neighbor. So it's not an attack.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave G
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
El Chupacabratwurst
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
montgoew wrote:
Why does a card only qualify to be an Attack card if it affects all other players? Let's suppose I introduce the Defiler card. This card let's me choose a player, and that player must trash a card from his hand. By the definition in this thread, that would not be an attack.


The designer has made it clear that there will never be an attack card that lets you choose a player to harm. So your example is effectively useless--it doesn't belong in this game. Any attacks that are in the game will always affect everyone equally according to the guy who gets to decide these things...is that a good enough reason?


montgoew wrote:

The Tribute should be an Attack card because it affects another player. I recognize there is a chance that a duplicate card might be overturned, but I submit it's more likely that two different cards would be turned up from the middle of the game on. It's only beneficial to the victim (I use "victim" because Tribute is obviously an attack) when I overturn two Victory cards, and possibly Copper later in the game.



Selective memory is more of a problem here. Sure, sometimes you're going to lose "good" cards to the Tribute. Most of the time, though, it's just helping you to cycle your deck faster, and in Dominion that's never a bad thing--even if it was your "best" card. You're two cards closer to shuffling in your most recent purchases, which should generally be good stuff that's going to help you (or, if you bought a province, the valuable money cards you spent to get it) when it's back in your deck. Over time, the affect is neither positive or negative, it's perfectly balanced.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.