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Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42» Forums » Rules

Subject: Chit pull system a bit odd? rss

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Jacek Krol

London
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I have some problems with the damage resolved by a chit pull system. The thing is, once you pull a damage chit and place it on a unit, it (EDIT: THE CHIT) becomes 'used' and thus unavailable for any further damage draft untill the affected unit gets killed. It doesn't seem to realistic, since it changes the probability of other hit effects to happen. Ultimately it could totally prohibit certain event to take place. For inststance, once all 'immobilised' chits are drawn, virtually no further tank could get immobilised.
I have come up with an idea of using a D20 to resolve damage (since there are 20 damage chits present). Damage results are given a specific range of numbers (1-5: unnerved, 6-10: pinned ... 20: KIA), and a D20 roll is made simultanously to To Hit roll. If the attack fails, simply ignore D20. If it hits, just check what damage you deal straight from the D20, find the appropriate chit (they stay assorted to the side), and place it on the relevant unit.
Any thoughts?

Refards,
Jacek
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Alexei Gartinski
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I don't have the rules in front of me, but I don't think that being hit (i.e. getting a hit chit) automatically makes a unit "used". It simply makes it more vulnerable and it can be killed if hit again. If its statistics was not affected by the hit counter, and if it was not "spent/used" before, it can still be activated as normal.
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Ľudovít H
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With this system opponent knows what damage you have. It could not be used for optional rule when you secretly draw damage chit. Another way to solve this is to add same counter as has been currently drawed back into draw pool. Don't know if that wont change gameplay though.

Alexei:
i think that OP is talking about damage chit being used, not the unit
 
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David Rauscher
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I disagree. While I have some qualms about Conflict of Heroes for other reasons, this is one aspect of the game I really liked. There's a nice wide variety of affects, but with a distribution that leans toward Foot Suppressed and Foot Pinned (for the infantry pool, anyway).

Yes, each pull that's left on a unit reduces the total variety, but only a little. Any other system would require looking up annoying charts, etc. - this is a nice and easy to implement game system as a whole, and a bunch of new additions to even out the randomness would unduly complicate it. Contrary to the point really.

I'd stop worrying and learn to love the chit pull.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Cyan001 wrote:
It doesn't seem to realistic, since it changes the probability of other hit effects to happen.

What makes you think that the initial probability is more realistic than the changed probability?

Even if you could establish that there's realistically a 1-in-whatever chance of a unit being suppressed instead of cowering, there are so many other factors which aren't accounted for in the chit draw--are the units in the open, or in cover? is the fire coming from one direction, or many? are enemy units behind them? do they believe themselves to be facing superior numbers? etc., etc.--that it's silly to worry about changes to the odds of a given chit being drawn. The mostly-fixed distribution of the chits is just a simplification for the sake of playability, anyway.

I think that if the game produces plausible results with minimal time & effort from the players, then it doesn't matter how it arrived at those results.
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Jacek Krol

London
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Re Rusty:
You missed the point. It is not about the probabilities, it is the running out of particular chits (and thus, running out of particular results) that I think is unrealistic. Why there can be only so-and-so many berserk units on the map at any given time? Or tanks with disabled guns? Etc...

Re David:
I don't think 'little' is an appropriate word to describe the variations of chance of pulling out some of the chits (about half of them in fact). For example, there are only two 'Foot Covering' counters. Draw one of them, and the chances for another 'Covering' result drop steeply.
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Malte Menger
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if you feel like this is a problem for you then just go ahead and fix it for yourself. Personally I do not think that there will be much feedback which will second your concerns. Anyway, it is you who have to feel comfortable when you play the game and for that it does not matter what others think. good luck.
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Lutz Pietschker
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I felt the same and kind of solved it by making 4 sets of chits, adding them all to the bag. Actually, play did not feel much different after I did, so I suppose it is not really important. Sometimes situations came up like "ok, berserk has been taken already, so no danger of that"), but very seldom, and without real impact on gameplay/decisions. I also understood from previous discussions that the rising likelihood of an immediate kill in case of multiple chits "at work" was intended, but considering this I think the different factions should have their own sets of chits- why is a German more likely to die if the Russians took multiple casualties already? But this has also been discussed extensively on BBG and elsewhere. The idea I like most about multiple chit sets in different bags is that damage can be adapted to nationality (think Up Front) or scenario. No end of options to doctor the game during ste-up while still keeping actual gameplay fast and intuitive! For me, this is part of the genius in the system.

Definitely the uncertainty about what damage was done adds a lot to the game, in particular with vehicles (Why does that tank linger around? Is it immobilised, or does someone try to lure me out into the open?), so I discarded the dice system (which I also tried).
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Isaac Citrom
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I agree with Jack. Frankly, I don't understand the application of this mechanic. Chit-pull is designed to take options out of a pool of options. That is the reason to use it. I don't see the reason for the use of this game mechanic with respect to the application of the type of combat effect. It's most unintuitive to think that an 88 mm Flak gun for example has a limited number of "disableds in it".

I'm also not buying into the "pesky chart" argument. With the limited number of results, the equivalent chart is trivial. This is not a situation of a complex multiple lookup.

Moreover, I don't see the added value in return for the introduction of meta-gaming by knowing how many chits have been already pulled for various combat results.

It just seems to me like chit-pull in this specific use of it is gratuitous. I'm certainly going to switch to a chart and see how much that affects the game. If it does significantly affect the game, I think that speaks more to the overall design. I know some players have more of a macro point-of-view but I'm of the mind that each part has to make sense to me.
.
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Chris Montgomery
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The chit-pull system allows for hidden unit effects. Technically, none of the players will know WHAT is left in the counter mix, unless that player has pulled ALL of a chits representing a single outcome (which would be rare).

The chit-pull mechanic has to do with fog of war. Your enemy doesn't know if that unit they just hit is going berserk, cowering, or what.

Additionally, CoH is a fun game and an interesting simulation, but the sleek play of the game did sacrifice some things. I like the chit-pull system and the unknown effects it has on my opponent's units.

Cheers.

Chris
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uwe eickert
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Great point guys. My experience shows that units do not keep their hit counters for a long time. They either get destroyed or rally.

I did want the odds of pulling killed counters to go up as more units take hits. This simulates the attrition fatigue that happens in any battle.

Uwe
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xx
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Jacek-
I agree with you to a point, but accept the problem. I sense that many commenters don't understand what you are getting at.

A) With a chit pull system, you get 1) hidden fire effects (the firing side doesn't know exactly what effect your fire had), and 2) no charts. Both of these are huge advantages. I like complicated games with complicated charts (I play ASL), but I appreciate the simplicity involved with the chit pull mechanic. Unfortunately, you lose 3) true random effects, for the reason you mentioned (if there is only one 'gun disabled' chit, then once it is used, it can't happen again-you are right-this is unrealistic).

B) With a chart and die system, you lose 1) hidden fire effects, and 2) the simplicity of not having charts to look up. But you gain 3) true random results, because there is not a limited number of chits to draw from. You theoretically have infinite numbers of 'gun disabled' results, for instance.


Thus, CoH accepted the disadvantages of A), in order to enjoy the advantages. Other games (like ASL) accept the disadvanges of B), to enjoy the advantages. I like CoH's choice.

As mentioned, one way to minimize the less random results aspect of the chit pull system is to have more chits (with one gun disabled chit, you really effect the odds of drawing gun disabled once you have drawn it. With 4-or 10, gun disabled chits, drawing one won't impact the future odds of drawing another as much).

P.
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James Palmer
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Paraguay wrote:
As mentioned, one way to minimize the less random results aspect of the chit pull system is to have more chits (with one gun disabled chit, you really effect the odds of drawing gun disabled once you have drawn it. With 4-or 10, gun disabled chits, drawing one won't impact the future odds of drawing another as much).


For those that purchase multiple CoH games (for instance, having Awakening the Bear, and Storms of Steel), you could simply combine the hit counters from both games, so that pulling one hit counter affected the overall average less.
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Ryan Frans
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Everybody will obviously have a different opinion on the randomness effects of the chit pull system, but it sounds to me that the distribution of the possible results was intentional.

uweeickert wrote:
Great point guys. My experience shows that units do not keep their hit counters for a long time. They either get destroyed or rally.

I did want the odds of pulling killed counters to go up as more units take hits. This simulates the attrition fatigue that happens in any battle.

Uwe


And based on my experiences with this game and how fluid it plays I think this is an absolutely amazing achievement. I have also noticed that hit counters don't stay around very long. I can understand where the OP's argument is coming from, but in practice it just has such a small impact on play and if you use the hidden damage rule (which I think really adds a lot anyway) you will most likely never even know how your odds could be or have been effected.
 
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Patrick DeGeest
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The pros and cons have already been discussed but, I my experience, the pros drastically outweigh the cons. The effect on gameplay seems to be very one-sided.

Players not knowing how 'damaged' an enemy unit is (hidden damage) has drastically affected how they act. Meanwhile, knowing that most of the ______ chits are being used has never changed anyone's decision in any of our games. To me, that proves that the game designers made the right choice.

The hidden damage will make games more exciting 100% of the time. Using all of the _________ chits thus creating unrealistic damage results will happen much less frequently. The trade-off seems obvious.
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