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Arkham Horror: Innsmouth Horror Expansion» Forums » General

Subject: Innsmouth AO Nastiness rss

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Brian Peters
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So, is it just me or are the AOs from this set some of the nastiest released, especially when it comes to final battles? I mean, one kills an investigator each turn in the final battle, another kills one every other turn and has to be defeated twice. Those two, especially, I have difficulty imagining how you could possibly defeat them before they eat everyone.
Now, I know, I definitely believe that the final battle should rarely, if ever, be seen as the path to victory, but I still think there should be a bit more hope there than what some of these AOs offer.

What do the rest of you think?
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Jesse Dean
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We generally concede when the Ancient One wakes up, as fighting them feels kind of unthematic to us. So their deadliness doesn't really bother us.
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Brian Peters
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Yeah, I know there are people that don't think you should fight them at all, because of matters of theme and whatnot. My post isn't really addressed to you guys. Like I said, while I prefer the AOs to be deadly enough in battle that fighting them isn't the best option for winning the game, I don't mind fighting them, despite how "unthematic" it might be for the same reasons I don't mind when Wendy the street urchin is shooting up monsters with a Tommy gun. Sometimes AH goes a little (or a lot) gonzo, and that's cool with me.

So for those who DO fight AOs when they wake up, do you think those added with the Innsmouth set are some of the nastiest ones yet, or am I way off-base with that assessment?
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Mike James
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With the exception of the 'You all lose' AO from the base game, I do think these are significantly harder to defeat. No that it matters all that much, our win/loss against AOs is pretty one sided with the couple of pull-it-out-your-ass victories only leaving 1 or 2 players left. I have only fought against one from Innsmouth, and when he popped it was a foregone conclusion, so it saved us some time. When the boss monster is physical and magical immune and you have nothing to change that, it is a pretty easy decision.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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I would agree. I've managed to eek (and I mean eek by the skin of my teeth) final combat draw against Zhar and Nyogtha. Also managed a draw against Rhan-Tegoth who had 21 doom tokens thanks to 5 Cultists on his sheet (averaging 4.5 Cultists drawn against R-T cry ). Quachil Uttaus is just flipping bonkers, have managed to seal him off though. Bokrug I've lost to, he, I think is doable if you manage to buy off 2 or more of the Beings of Ib. Cthugha went to final combat today, had no Spells so after 2 attacks, nobody had weapons left blush . Ghatanothoa is quite nasty with his -6 mod and negating 1 success per attack. Chaugnar Faugn is IMO very doable IF you prepare (so probably not doable for me).
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JGT
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fnord3125 wrote:
Now, I know, I definitely believe that the final battle should rarely, if ever, be seen as the path to victory, but I still think there should be a bit more hope there than what some of these AOs offer.

I kinda think that that was the point. From Day 1, we've all been slinging opinions left and right as to the ease of the game, the godhood of some Investigators, the heavily-armed baking of Yig in the Final Battle...so FFG has been stepping up the AOs power every expansion.

The DH ones (mostly surge and surge-related) patched the base game difficulty. The KH ones pounded us awake AND slumbering. But the IH ones kinda ease off somewhat while they slumber, and are worse than impossible when they awake. I don't have to be hit with the prod too many times to comprehend the reinforcement:

"Stop thinking that the Final Battle is a option. Play the game. Seal the Gates. DO YOUR JOB."
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Christopher Lloyd
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jgt7771 wrote:
"Stop thinking that the Final Battle is a option. Play the game. Seal the Gates. DO YOUR JOB."


There oftenn comes a point in the games I've observed when you have to give up on sealing gates. Tragic as it may sound, if you're only two doom tokens away from waking the ancient one with only four gates sealed, it can often be a good option to start stocking up on clues, items, or whatever else it might be that will give you one extra turn against the Elder God.

L.
 
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Brian Peters
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Dam the Man wrote:
I would agree. I've managed to eek (and I mean eek by the skin of my teeth) final combat draw against Zhar and Nyogtha.
. . .
Quachil Uttaus is just flipping bonkers, have managed to seal him off though.
Shouldn't Zhar and Q-U be about equal in combat? Zhar has a guaranteed devour every other turn, Q-T every turn, but Zhar has to be killed twice. Of course, I don't have their sheets in front of me, so I'm not thinking about their modifiers and resistances... is Q-U a lot worse that way?
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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fnord3125 wrote:
Dam the Man wrote:
I would agree. I've managed to eek (and I mean eek by the skin of my teeth) final combat draw against Zhar and Nyogtha.
. . .
Quachil Uttaus is just flipping bonkers, have managed to seal him off though.
Shouldn't Zhar and Q-U be about equal in combat? Zhar has a guaranteed devour every other turn, Q-T every turn, but Zhar has to be killed twice. Of course, I don't have their sheets in front of me, so I'm not thinking about their modifiers and resistances... is Q-U a lot worse that way?


QU eats all your Allies as well (not that I generally have any, unless I got one during setup). Second, QU has -3 double immunity full-time, meaning just your basic Fight (and grumble, grumble, Martial Arts crap from KH). Zhar has -3, Magical Immunity first. After you kill him once, Zhar is -3 Physical Immunity. Meaning if have a wide selection of weapons, you get full benefits against both Zhars. And of course, QU devours someone each turn, Zhar "only" every other turn. -1 hand on Zhar for one attack isn't as bad as it seems, if you got plenty of weapons to go around.
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Rauli Kettunen
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Luge wrote:
There oftenn comes a point in the games I've observed when you have to give up on sealing gates. Tragic as it may sound, if you're only two doom tokens away from waking the ancient one with only four gates sealed, it can often be a good option to start stocking up on clues, items, or whatever else it might be that will give you one extra turn against the Elder God.

L.


Never have, never will give up on closing/sealing. 2 doom tokens away, but 4 seals, that's okay odds by me for Mythos bouncing on seals. Unless DOR track is at 4-5 as well.
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JGT
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I'm with Dam. (Whoa! RARE! -3 Sanity!) In my most recent game with Rhan-Tegoth, he was up to 9 Doom about a dozen turns before he awoke, and I only had 2 Seals at that point. Tommy was able to give us a few more turns, and Wendy and Lily were able to Seal 3 and 4 (Rhan STILL at Doom 9). Wendy and Trish were only 1 or 2 turns away from each exiting a Gate with enough Clues for Seals 5 and 6. But they got delayed, and Rhan woke up from too many Gates.

I had a fighting chance all the way to the end, but if I had believed it was over at Doom 9 and given up, the game would have been over about an hour earlier, and not been NEARLY as exciting.
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Rauli Kettunen
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jgt7771 wrote:
I had a fighting chance all the way to the end, but if I had believed it was over at Doom 9 and given up, the game would have been over about an hour earlier, and not been NEARLY as exciting.


Jason Nesmith: Never give up. Never surrender. laugh
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Adam Mitchell
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fnord3125 wrote:
So, is it just me or are the AOs from this set some of the nastiest released, especially when it comes to final battles? I mean, one kills an investigator each turn in the final battle, another kills one every other turn and has to be defeated twice. Those two, especially, I have difficulty imagining how you could possibly defeat them before they eat everyone.
Now, I know, I definitely believe that the final battle should rarely, if ever, be seen as the path to victory, but I still think there should be a bit more hope there than what some of these AOs offer.

What do the rest of you think?


It isn't just you. Virtually all of the Innsmouth AO's are extremely difficult to defeat in final combat, and indeed some of them are nigh-impossible. Still, think of the satisfaction to be derived if you actually win against them! We've beaten both Nyogtha and Bokrug (who still had all four Beings of Ib) and it felt great! Then, too, I enjoy even a hopeless fight against an AO if it means I get to see a new Sinister Plot.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Solan wrote:
We've beaten both Nyogtha and Bokrug (who still had all four Beings of Ib) and it felt great! Then, too, I enjoy even a hopeless fight against an AO if it means I get to see a new Sinister Plot.


Iä! Bokrug in final combat with 4 Beings of Ib, beaten surprise ?!?!?!

But with all 4 Ibs still on his sheet, he's -8, Magical + Physical Immunity with 18 doom tokens then. And you only get 4 attacks.
 
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Adam Mitchell
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Dam the Man wrote:
Solan wrote:
We've beaten both Nyogtha and Bokrug (who still had all four Beings of Ib) and it felt great! Then, too, I enjoy even a hopeless fight against an AO if it means I get to see a new Sinister Plot.


Iä! Bokrug in final combat with 4 Beings of Ib, beaten surprise ?!?!?!

But with all 4 Ibs still on his sheet, he's -8, Magical + Physical Immunity with 18 doom tokens then. And you only get 4 attacks.


You are absolutely correct. Yet we still won. Have I got you curious as to how yet ? And it was NOT by clue shotgunning of Azure Flaming!
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Solan wrote:
Dam the Man wrote:
Solan wrote:
We've beaten both Nyogtha and Bokrug (who still had all four Beings of Ib) and it felt great! Then, too, I enjoy even a hopeless fight against an AO if it means I get to see a new Sinister Plot.


Iä! Bokrug in final combat with 4 Beings of Ib, beaten surprise ?!?!?!

But with all 4 Ibs still on his sheet, he's -8, Magical + Physical Immunity with 18 doom tokens then. And you only get 4 attacks.


You are absolutely correct. Yet we still won. Have I got you curious as to how yet ? And it was NOT by clue shotgunning of Azure Flaming!


Hmmm:

Harvey Walters (or another San 7 char) + Duke + Third Eye = 9 max San, so could remove 9 doomers with Call Ancient One.

Norman Withers -4 doomers

Lily Chen -2 doomers

Tommy -1 doomer

Marie Lambeau -2 doomers

That's -18 doomers. Looking at Tibs' stat sheets, your recorded Bokrug final combat win didn't use any of those, so pretty much LiTaS on that.


On a side note, Clue Shotgunning/Azure Flaming wouldn't fly around here even if you stocked up on Clues. Immunity means no 2 success on a 6 (house rule of course).

"Oh man, it ate that Dynamite and took no damage!"

"I know, I'll shotgun him, he'll spook after hearing 2 bangs in quick succession." shake
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Adam Mitchell
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I must admit, I am impressed that you figured out a way to take out a full-strength Bokrug. But, as you noted, that is not the way we used.

Actually it was probably a bit cruel of me to even pose the question to you, given my awareness of your aversion, but I couldn't resistmodest. If you used the magnificent Epic Battle variant you would know while most of the Sinister Plots are very bad news for the Investigators (and rightly so), a tiny handful of them are actually helpful. Of these the most beneficial by far is Bokrug's "The Departure".

There it was, fourth round of the fight, with absolutely no chance of victory for us, and one of Bokrug's Sinister Plots came up. It was "The Departure", and that's exactly what he did: he departed this reality and so we won! Oh, the card said to put in a -4 if you are scoring this victory, but hey, a win is a win!

Now, how did you manage to take out Zhar? Even without the Epic Battle variant, that's an awfully difficult fight.
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Rauli Kettunen
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Solan wrote:
Actually it was probably a bit cruel of me to even pose the question to you, given my awareness of your aversion, but I couldn't resistmodest. If you used the magnificent Epic Battle variant you would know while most of the Sinister Plots are very bad news for the Investigators (and rightly so), a tiny handful of them are actually helpful. Of these the most beneficial by far is Bokrug's "The Departure".


I thought it might've been that. I seemed to recall Bokrug having a weird Plot, but was too lazy to fish out the card (and wiki didn't have his up yet).

Quote:
Now, how did you manage to take out Zhar? Even without the Epic Battle variant, that's an awfully difficult fight.


This is basically the jist of it:

"Zhar, who I needed just 1 more turn to 6-seal BTW got taken out partly because of Mythos, namely "All Quiet in Arkham" hit the turn before he woke and all 4 investigators got Blessed as a result. Still went down to the wire, Roland already had the Zhar token, so it was do or die. He did."

Additionally, had one-shot discard after use weapons for those early victims (Dynamite, Molotov, etc.), so those early chars didn't eat any of my latter attacks. Patrice came in with 12 Clues, Roland had 5 I think (plus replenish each of the 8 rounds). With 5 seals down, even KW's final combat suggestion wouldn't have made a difference (Patrice and Roland were the last 2 investigators).
 
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Kevin Cachia
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fnord3125 wrote:
So, is it just me or are the AOs from this set some of the nastiest released, especially when it comes to final battles?

What do the rest of you think?


So far, I have only leafed through the Innsmouth GOO cards, but as far as I am concerned, they are all Azathoth with shorter doom tracks. I can't picture ever defeating any of them in combat.

I think they could have made the the GOOs tougher, but I think they went crazy overboard.
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Rauli Kettunen
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kevinwho wrote:
So far, I have only leafed through the Innsmouth GOO cards, but as far as I am concerned, they are all Azathoth with shorter doom tracks. I can't picture ever defeating any of them in combat.

I think they could have made the the GOOs tougher, but I think they went crazy overboard.


Only tougher in final combat, though Rhan-Tegoth can make Yig look slow in terms of doom tokens. Most have very minor actual game impact; Ghatanothoa, Quachil Uttaus and dice-depeding Zhar have anything really meaningful (even the other two can shoot blanks all game). Bokrug brings known qualities, Cthugha doesn't add anything really, Chaugnar Faugn is almost a joke and Nyogtha just makes it that you draw less from the monster cup.
 
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Jon W
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kevinwho wrote:
I think they could have made the the GOOs tougher, but I think they went crazy overboard.

I don't think the GOOs needed to be any tougher at all, but I think there is a subset of AH players out there who approach each game gearing up for the final battle from the outset, and these new GOOs seem oriented toward that type of player. Or to larger numbers of players, where you can have a part of the group dedicated to the final fight while the others try to make that unnecessary.

But yeah, for us, these are just Azathoth with some new variables. Facing Zhar in a game now, and I have little doubt that if he wakes up we won't even kill him once, let alone twice.
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