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Subject: Advance after successful assault rss

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Ken Wong
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Can a squad which is already in Op Fire mode advance to the vacated hex after supporting a successful assault?
 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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It can not support an advance. Only fresh or fatigued squads support, not OPed.
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beresford dickens
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Rules say that a unit in Op Fire mode is Fresh and can therefore support an assault and advance if the assault is successful. It would then become Fatigued.

See definition of 'Fresh' P8, and definition of units eligible to support on P33.
 
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Ken Wong
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I don't think Op Fire mode is Fresh. From P.8, "Fresh is a unit that has been assigned NO activation token". And from P.5, the activation tokens have 2 sides: Fatigued and Op Fire.

Therefore, I don't think Op Fire mode is Fresh.
 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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beresford wrote:
Rules say that a unit in Op Fire mode is Fresh


No .
Fresh:a unit that has been assigned no activation token (i.e. is not fatigued or in Op Fire mode).


An other guy from the site of FFG:


That is a tough one, which we have debated before.

The letter of the rules say that Any two adjacent squads may support. Though it does mention 3 conditions that precludes units(Heavy weapon, Pin & disruption). The sentence making the most trouble is: "even fatigued squads." The sentence makes it clear that fatigues squads may support. But some also reads it as indication that its inclusion means that only fresh or fatigued squads, and thus not Op-fire squads, as such are Non-fatigued & Non-fresh.

My take on this interpretation is that YES - adjacent squads in Op-fire, May participate in assaults, after which they become fatigued. As Non-fatigued they may advance after combat.
 
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beresford dickens
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Whoops. But I still say that an Op Fire squad can support an Assault (and then become fatigued). After all the Op Fire squad is giving up its Op Fire status whereas a fatigued squad is giving up nothing.
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Yiannis Avramandis
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Probably you are right but I like to know the official opinion .
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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Emil 109 wrote:
[q="beresford"]An other guy from the site of FFG:
That is a tough one, which we have debated before.
The letter of the rules say that Any two adjacent squads may support. Though it does mention 3 conditions that precludes units(Heavy weapon, Pin & disruption). The sentence making the most trouble is: "even fatigued squads." The sentence makes it clear that fatigues squads may support. But some also reads it as indication that its inclusion means that only fresh or fatigued squads, and thus not Op-fire squads, as such are Non-fatigued & Non-fresh.

My take on this interpretation is that YES - adjacent squads in Op-fire, May participate in assaults, after which they become fatigued. As Non-fatigued they may advance after combat.


From the discussion at FFG, here are 3 posts, with additional bold, of my thoughts on this issue. I was usually responding to another post that I've not included.

#1
I believe that 'up to two friendly squads' sets the basic conditions. The phrase 'even fatigued squads' lets us know that prior activation does not exclude a unit and carries no meaning about anything else. The phrase 'but not pinned or disrupted' sets conditions for squads that are excluded and carries no meaning for any other squads. Since there is no language that includes the word 'fresh', as an inclusion condition, or 'op-fire', as an exclusion condition, then squads in op-fire adhere to the requirements of friendly units that are allowed to participate.

#2
Nothing is an assault, until it's an assault. Certainly Op-Fire is not an assault. And we're not talking about it being an assault, but only supporting an assault.
There is no requirement that a squad be 'fresh', only that it be 'friendly' and, last time I looked, the Op-Fire squads were smiling.
Interesting that you should suggest that they be fatigued first! Aren't fatigued Op-Fire squads still Op-Fire squads? Being fatigued is not a restriction, but it isn't inclusive either.
The language, as it should, speaks for itself. Command structure/reality has little to do with rules.

#3
The authorization from FFG is given in the rules and in the basic nature of the organization of the rulebook.
If you look in the Opportunity Fire section on p.32, you will find the rules for how a squad in Op-Fire can make an Opportunity Fire attack. The section on Assault Attacks on p.33 gives us the rules for Assault Attacks. This discussion is about the 'triggers' for 'supporting an Assault Attack', not about 'triggers' for making an Opportunity Fire attack. Since this supporting action is not about making a self-contained Opportunity Fire attack, it would not be in the OF section on p.32. The rules for different things are in different places in the rulebook, which, while keeping the rulebook somewhat brief, has also lead to some confusion. A rule for a specific thing may be different than the rule for a general thing. For example, in general 'fatigued' means get some rest, but in the Assault Attack rules, fatigue doesn't matter, so it's 'wake up and support those idiots assaulting those guys'. Notice that on page 29, where it talks about Conbined Fire, there are restrictions broken down into Concentrated Attack and Op-Fire Attack, using the word 'only' in placing restrictions on who can do what in those situations. Since an Assault Attack is neither one of those, some might think that 'only' would preclude any unit from supporting an Assault, since the rules state that such and such is in the rules. Luckily, specific rules trump general rules, so we really have to go with what is written in the Assault Attack rules. As long as you are friendly, adjacent and not pinned or disrupted, you are good to go.
 
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Yiannis Avramandis
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Everything would be more easy if someone from the designers could give us a clear answer, a single yes or a no.
 
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Jeffrey Nolin
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Emil 109 wrote:
Everything would be more easy if someone from the designers could give us a clear answer, a single yes or a no.


It is already clear from the rules in the rulebook.
Squads in op-fire are included as they are friendly.

Some squads with other conditions are specifically included or excluded. The 'fatigued' condition for assault over-rides one of the most basic rules of play.

Elsewhere in the book there are rules that govern what op-fire units do in 'other' specific situations. The rule that says that op-fire is triggered by movement in your opponent's turn refers only to an op-fire action by a unit in op-fire (vs concentrated fire action or fire and movement action). Combined Fire rules (p.29) are about supporting 'concentrated attacks' and 'op-fire attacks'.

An assault action is not a concentrated action, a fire and move action nor an op-fire action. Specifically, support of an assault is not an op-fire action nor a support of op-fire attack (nor a concentrated action, nor support of a concentrated attack) , so op-fire rules do not apply.

The rules for supporting an assault do not exclude op-fire, but, as friendly squads, do include them.

It is really very simple when the organization of the rules is considered. Being in op-fire is a condition for making an op-fire attack and for supporting an op-fire attack, it also excludes it from doing other things. However, it does not exclude it from supporting an assault, which is one of the basic actions and therefore a special action that has a section of the rulebook to itself with special inclusion and exclusion rules.
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