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Subject: Monster Surge clarification rss

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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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I think I know the answer to this already, but just to be sure...

Is the "monster surge" description in the expansions meant to replace what's in the original rules, or is that difference of description only meant to be used when using the expansion(s)?

The original rules say: This is called a monster surge. When a monster surge occurs, the number of monsters drawn and placed is equal to the number of open gates or the number of players, whichever is greater. The first player draws monster markers from the cup at random and places them on each location with an open gate. When placing monsters, they should be divided as evenly as possible among the open gates, with no gate having more monsters placed on it than the gate where the monster surge occurred this turn.

The Innsmouth rules say: If, at the beginning of the Mythos Phase, the first player draws a mythos card that shows a location that already has an open gate, a monster is placed at every location with an open gate. This event is called a monster surge. Several cards in the Innsmouth Horror expansion refer to “monster surges.”

What makes it confusing is that, in the Innsmouth rulebook, under the section in the back on "Arkham Horror Rule Changes and Clarifications" it again describes monster surges as: When, at the beginning the Mythos Phase, the first player draws a mythos card that shows a location that already has an open gate, this triggers a monster surge. When a monster surge occurs, the number of monsters drawn and placed is equal to either the number of open gates or the number of players, whichever is greater. When placed, these monsters should be divided as evenly as possible among the open gates, with no gate having more monsters placed on it than the gate where the monster surge occurred. If there are more monsters to be placed than allowed by the monster limit, the first player decides where monsters will be placed, but he must do so before monsters are drawn from the cup.

If the different rule about just adding one monster to each open gate for a monster surge is meant to be used for the expansion, then they probably should have left out that part in the "rule changes and clarifications" part for the expansion rulebook. But anyway...
 
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brian
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It is played the same way as before.

I believe it is under "rule changes" because it IS a change from 1st edition. If you have 2nd edition, it may sound confusing because you always had this info.

They keep that assuming you have 1st edition, much like they keep repeating the card changes that had errors on 1st edition but were changed for 2nd edition.
 
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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Okay, that makes sense, but what about the different description for Innsmouth? That only applies when playing Innsmouth, right?
 
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brian
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Grudunza wrote:
Okay, that makes sense, but what about the different description for Innsmouth? That only applies when playing Innsmouth, right?

I think it is incomplete. Monster surges are supposed to be the same. It looks like they dropped the language to make sure a minimum number of monsters get out based on player count.
 
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brian
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I looked at Kingsport and it uses similiar fuzzy language.

It looks like in KH, they tried to simplify the detialed rules of DH and added in parenthesis that every gate gets a monster. It was more of a definition than a detailed means to resolve it.

In IH, they took the KH language and further "cleaned" it up and looks like they inadvertantly change the means to resolve it.

I think this is an oversight on their part. I would continue to play monster surges as they have always been played. Nothing else about Innsmouth suggests they meant to make surges easier if there were less gates than players.
 
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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But then why make any mention of it at all within the main body of the Innsmouth rules? I think that for the expansion, perhaps because of the added difficulty of traveling between the towns and dealing with the Deep Ones track, that the monster surges have been changed/simplified. Not that the other monster surge rule always gives an advantage, necessarily... In the case where there are less gates open than investigators, then yes.
 
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brian
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I think it needs to be in the text of the rules because reference is made about surges on the cards. Like I said, I think it started out as a definition in Kingsport (and going back farther, it is the same "definition" in Dunwich) and they tried cleaning up the language in Innsmouth and inadvertantly caused a conflict.

KH said basically the same thing but didn't restict it to one monster per gate, It just made mention that every gate gets a monster. Which is techincally always true unless limits come into effect. At a bare minimum, each gate should always get a monster. Only in the cases of there being more players than open gates will certain gates potentially get more than one.

When you look at Innsmouth in comparison to Kingsport, you see it is just a few words changed and now all of a sudden the meaning is different.

Given how a LOT of the standard FAQ stuff has been reworded, I think it is obvious someone when through and edited the KH rulebook to make up the basis of the IH rulebook. I don't think that person was Kevin Wilson and I don't think anyone went back to double-check the editors work.

Look at the evolution of the "definition" in the rule books:

Dunwich, Page 5 wrote:
When, at the beginning the Mythos Phase, the first player
draws a mythos card that shows a location that already
has an open gate (and therefore a monster is placed at
every location with an open gate), this is now called a
monster surge. Several cards in the Dunwich Horror
expansion refer to “monster surges.”


Kingsport, Page 7 wrote:
When, at the beginning of the Mythos Phase, the first player
draws a Mythos card that shows a location that already has
an open gate (and therefore a monster is placed at every
location with an open gate), this is called a monster surge.
Several cards in the Kingsport Horror expansion refer to
“monster surges.”


And now...

Innsmouth, Page 7 wrote:
If, at the beginning of the Mythos Phase, the first player
draws a mythos card that shows a location that already has an
open gate, a monster is placed at every location with an open
gate. This event is called a monster surge. Several cards in
the Innsmouth Horror expansion refer to “monster surges.”


Between Kingsport and Innsmouth, I marked what was deleted and added.

Given the change in just a couple of words and punctuation marks, doesn't it seem obvious it was meant to cleanup the language instead of be a major impact on how the game is handled?
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Given the change in just a couple of words and punctuation marks, doesn't it seem obvious it was meant to cleanup the language instead of be a major impact on how the game is handled?


Not really... If it were only in the FAQ, that would make sense. But this distinction is included in the main body of the "what's different about this particular expansion" rules section (and then the other description of monster surges, including the distinction between number of gates and number of investigators, appears in the back of the book FAQ, which talks about the base game in general). That's why I think it's meant to be different when the expansion is played. You may very well be right, but strictly from the way it's presented that's what it seems to be saying, that the difference should apply when playing with the expansion. I know you're an expert on the game, Brian, but I think we need an official FFG clarification on that to be sure. Kevin? Richard?
 
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brian
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I wouldn't mind a clarification either. Strictly written, I would agree with your assessment - especially how it was "clarifed" for Innsmouth. But it has been out there since Dunwich. I think if we had been playing surges wrong, it would have been picked up by someone before this. So yes, I would like the clarification but assume that it will come back that it is incorrectly stated in the rules.
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