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Subject: Loops and city vs. town rss

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Jesse McGatha
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The rules explicitly prohibit a route that visits the same city twice, effectively looping through a city in order to create a longer route for more points.

My assumption is that this was meant to apply equally to towns and was merely an oversight. Do folks here agree?
 
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Chris Boote
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I agree completely
You are right, and the rules should prohibit that as well
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J C Lawrence
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Jester wrote:
The rules explicitly prohibit a route that visits the same city twice, effectively looping through a city in order to create a longer route for more points.


False. Such a set of track is perfectly legal. A delivery that encounters the same town or city tiwice is not legal.
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Jesse McGatha
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Right, I implied (but didn't say) the bit in parentheses, since other routes (links) don't score more points based on their length (just 1 point per link at the end of the game).

"The rules explicitly prohibit a route (for delivering a cube) that visits the same city twice, effectively looping through a city in order to create a longer route for more points."
 
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Maciej Welc
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Jester wrote:
My assumption is that this was meant to apply equally to towns and was merely an oversight. Do folks here agree?

I do not agree. Looping through a town is IMHO legal.

Example: A-t-B-t-C

One can enter a city B from a town t and leave a city B to a town t using two different links.

PS
Entering the same city more than once is - as stated in the rules - illegal.
 
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J C Lawrence
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macike wrote:
One can enter a city B from a town t and leave a city B to a town t using two different links.


And that would be wrong.
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Jack Neal
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clearclaw wrote:
macike wrote:
One can enter a city B from a town t and leave a city B to a town t using two different links.


And that would be wrong.


Actually, I'm not so sure. I assumed Cities and Towns were the same, however, there is no example in the rulebook that has to do with a town.

I was looking all on 'Moving a Goods Cube' on page 12 and the pertinent part says, "You cannot move it into or through the same city more than once on its journey." (emphasis mine) - A town is not the same as a city.

Examples here...



Since it's a town, by the Steam rules, it looks like you could go for four points instead of just two. If the Town were Urbanized, then the rule above would force a delivery for only two points.

If anyone can find something contrary to this, I would appreciate it. We have played that you can't go through the same city or town twice.


edit: Emphasis.


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Randall Bart
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I would not question Clearclaw on this.
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jim b
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Raiderjakk wrote:



Since it's a town, by the Steam rules, it looks like you could go for four points instead of just two. If the Town were Urbanized, then the rule above would force a delivery for only two points.

In the example, let's say that's a town at the SW end of delivery 2, instead of yellow city E.

What would stop you from looping repeatedly between towns? You could go 1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 4.

That really seems against the spirit of the rules... I've always assumed you can't loop deliveries across towns or cities (as in AoS), but it does appear to be left ambiguous in the text. (An oversight, I think.)

edit - minor wording
 
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Maciej Welc
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jimb wrote:
What would stop you from looping repeatedly between towns? You could go 1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 4.

Double profit from single link (2 and 3 in the example).
 
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Maciej Welc
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Raiderjakk wrote:
I was looking all on 'Moving a Goods Cube' on page 12 and the pertinent part says, "You cannot move it into or through the same city more than once on its journey." (emphasis mine) - A town is not the same as a city.

I've checked Polish and German rules on that. Both use "city or town" statement within the same paragraph that prohibits looping through cities (explicitly and only). So either there is a mistake (missing "or town") or towns can be crossed more than once.
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Jack Neal
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Barticus88 wrote:
I would not question Clearclaw on this.


Usually I don't because he's spot on.

However, I reserve the right to question an ambiguity and to illustrate it and comment on it in a nonoffensive manner - no matter where or whom it comes from.

Thanks though...

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Jack Neal
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macike wrote:
Raiderjakk wrote:
I was looking all on 'Moving a Goods Cube' on page 12 and the pertinent part says, "You cannot move it into or through the same city more than once on its journey." (emphasis mine) - A town is not the same as a city.

I've checked Polish and German rules on that. Both use "city or town" statement within the same paragraph that prohibits looping through cities (explicitly and only). So either there is a mistake (missing "or town") or towns can be crossed more than once.


I'm willing to bet this was an oversight and I never played it in the way I diagrammed above (but I've screwed up a fair number of rules in this game already).

Can we get a ruling from the fine folks at Mayfair?
 
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Christoph M.
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Since you get points per used connection, and using the same connection twice is still only one connection, i.e. 1 point, it wouldn't make any difference if you continually loop in the above example.
And if there isn't an oversight in all versions of the rulebook (i.e. most likely only in the original one, and this translated), the above example is perfectly legal.
 
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W. Beljo
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macike wrote:

I've checked Polish and German rules on that. Both use "city or town" statement within the same paragraph that prohibits looping through cities (explicitly and only). So either there is a mistake (missing "or town") or towns can be crossed more than once.


Can`t confirm this for the german rules from phalanx, which are in line with the english text:

"Man kann einen Warenstein nicht zu der Großstadt zurückbringen,
in der er den Transport begonnen hat.Außerdem darf ein Warenstein
während des Transports nicht mehrmals in oder durch dieselbe
Großstadt transportiert werden."

I think that the missing mention of the term town was intentional and loops deliveries with the same town (but differnt connections) are legal.

One indication is the mention within the Chapter "Phase 2 Build", Further restricons last sentence (I only got the german rules):
"Die Spieler
dürfen jedoch eine Reihe von Verbindungen bauen, die zusammen
eine Schleife bilden (es gibt dafür profitable Gründe)!"

My amateur translation: The player is allowed to build a line of connections, which forms a loop (for this purpose there are profitable reasons)

Imho this "profitable reasons" can only be to deliver one cube over the same town.
 
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Juho Snellman
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BudsBalkan wrote:
I think that the missing mention of the term town was intentional and loops deliveries with the same town (but differnt connections) are legal.


Where is this "different connection" rule coming from? I don't remember seeing anything like that in the rules, and it seems like something that is just being invented to make it less obvious how broken a game where you could ship multiple times through the same town would be.

But broken it would be. Much of the skill in these games is building a network that can ship your goods efficiently (that is, get maximum link size shipments as often as possible). A 2 town loop would be way too cheap a way to add 2 links to the shipment.

Quote:

My amateur translation: The player is allowed to build a line of connections, which forms a loop (for this purpose there are profitable reasons)

Imho this "profitable reasons" can only be to deliver one cube over the same town.


The profitable reasons are that there are certain kinds of loop that allow you to profitably adjust the length of a shipment (e.g. building a bypass to reduce a 7 to a 6, or to avoid a city of a certain color).
 
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W. Beljo
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jsnell wrote:
Where is this "different connection" rule coming from? I don't remember seeing anything like that in the rules, and it seems like something that is just being invented to make it less obvious how broken a game where you could ship multiple times through the same town would be.


My mistake and you are right, there is no restriction of using the same connection only once, but you would only get maximal one point of it, if you use it more than once, as chris mentioned before.
 
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Björn Steffen
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Did we come to a final ruling about this?

I checked the FAQ of Age of Steam about this.
Quote:

You can't use the same link or city twice in a single delivery

Within a single delivery the same link or city may not be used more than once.


No mentioning of towns either. So can one use a town multiple times for a delivery as by the example of

Raiderjakk wrote:




Since it's a town, by the Steam rules, it looks like you could go for four points instead of just two. If the Town were Urbanized, then the rule above would force a delivery for only two points.


Thanks
 
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Pasta Batman
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I agree with the common interpretation that delivery loops through towns are not allowed. It would be goofy to allow them through towns but not cities. But it's amazing to me that it is still an interpretation - has this never been nailed down for AoS? If not, it would be nice to get an official ruling and kill this forever. And while we're at it, it would be nice to get an official ruling on this as well.
 
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J C Lawrence
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pastabatman wrote:
...has this never been nailed down for AoS?


It is well covered by the AoS rules.
 
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jim b
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clearclaw wrote:
It is well covered by the AoS rules.

I'm laughing so hard I can't see straight.

Gentle reader, please search the AoS group for the word 'visit' to get a nice overview of AoS' rules and social norms - when you're done with that, realize there's half-a-dozen terms in the aos thesaurus with long, heated pedantic, lawyering debates like that over there.

For some, that's well covered.
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J C Lawrence
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jimb wrote:
Gentle reader, please search the AoS group for the word 'visit' to get a nice overview of AoS' rules and social norms - when you're done with that, realize there's half-a-dozen terms in the aos thesaurus with long, heated pedantic, lawyering debates like that over there.


Also look at the dates on those threads. With rare exception they're all recent and there's good reason for that which has little to do with the AoS rules.
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jim b
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Martin Wallace
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The rules should state that you cannot visit the same city or town twice.

Martin
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Richard Dewsbery
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I'd also question why we're being told to listen to one particular voice on the topic of Steam rules interpretations when (i) he's already made his own bias against Steam abundantly clear, and (ii) he has only played the game once or twice.
 
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