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Dominion: Intrigue» Forums » Strategy

Subject: What would you do? Throne Room+Torturer rss

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Myke Madsen
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If you've got 5 cards and an opponent plays Throne Room/Torturer what would you do?

I realize this depends a lot on what's in your hand and what cards are out, but let's assume there's at least one card in the setup that lets you trash curses.

If you have Library, Minion or even a Lab in your hand you'd probably discard every other card and hope for a productive turn... but what if you have a less powerful hand? Do you take one Curse and then discard that Curse and another card? Do you take both Curses? Probably yes, if you have Trading Post or Chapel in hand.

Let's say you have no immediate way (in hand) to trash those Curses. At what point is it worth essentially skipping a turn in order to keep a Curse or two out of your deck? What's the value of a turn?
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Ted Vessenes
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This depends heavily on your deck size. I'm much more likely to take a curse with 40 cards in my deck than 15. Remember that you only need to draw that curse twice for it to cost you as many useful card draws as the discard would have. I'll often take a curse when I have a trash option in hand, but I can only think of one other time I took a curse.
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David desJardins
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What's the probability that there are going to be two or three more Torturers played before your next turn?
 
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Myke Madsen
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DaviddesJ wrote:
What's the probability that there are going to be two or three more Torturers played before your next turn?


This is also a factor. If your LHO in a 4-player game plays Throne Room/Torturer and there's a fair chance one of the other opponents will play Torturer, do you just punt?
 
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Greg Payne
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It's an interesting decision, and a lot depends on what your hand is doing. If you have a hand full of crap, and would be doing very little with it anyway, then discarding 4 cards kinda plays itself. But there are some hands that could very well benefit from having two more cards in hand. Cards like Cellar (discard them to get two fresh cards) or Secret Chamber (discard them for an extra $2), and with either of those, having two extra Curses in hand could well make the difference betweem $8 or not.

But choosing to skip your turn is difficult. There comes a point when you may just need to "tank" the Curses and play on. For me, that time is, probably all of the time, unless I have a hand that is going to be doing nothing, or taking one Curse if I have an obvious discard.
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Sam Lindsay-Levine
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Also, once the Curse pile is empty the Torturer no longer has a harmful effect at all, which seems worth taking into consideration.
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Matt Dickinson
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Yet another reason to love the Minion...discard down to one Minion, and when your turn comes around, discard your nonexistent "hand" and pick up four cards. With any luck, you'll screw up that other guy by making him toss his cards and pick up four more.

Better yet, if Library is on the table...
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Joseph DiMuro
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HappyProle wrote:
If you have Library, Minion or even a Lab in your hand you'd probably discard every other card and hope for a productive turn...


Library or Minion, sure. But I don't think I'd be bold enough to discard down to a single Laboratory (unless everything else in my hand was a VP card). Pinning my hopes on the two cards I'd draw with the Lab? Not likely. It would probably be better to take a curse or two.
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Craig Somerton
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I find that sometimes curses can be nullified if you play Masquerade.

In the game we played yesterday, I managed to offload six Curses to gain four Estate cards in return, as well and several coppers. Luckily I didn't get any curses back again.

Considering off-loading a Curse and gaining an Estate is worth two points, it's good value.
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David K
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Since this topic is here, I can choose to discard 2 cards to a torturer even if I am down to 1 card, right?
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David desJardins
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KhyrosFinalCut wrote:
Since this topic is here, I can choose to discard 2 cards to a torturer even if I am down to 1 card, right?


Yes. Or zero.
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Myke Madsen
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anomander64 wrote:
I find that sometimes curses can be nullified if you play Masquerade.

In the game we played yesterday, I managed to offload six Curses to gain four Estate cards in return, as well and several coppers. Luckily I didn't get any curses back again.

Considering off-loading a Curse and gaining an Estate is worth two points, it's good value.


In the one game we played with Torturer & Masquerade it was very rare to not get a Curse passed to you when Masquerade was played.
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Fred Snertz
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In a game last night, I discarded twice when Tortured by 2 successive players but hung on to my Tribute. The next player played Masquerade and I got to trade my Tribute for a curse which of course meant I also forfeited my turn. It was brutal. I plan to avoid that happening again.
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John Mellby
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In our Dominion tournament over the weekend I saw another table
when when a player placed:
Throne Room + Throne Room + Torturer + Torturer
He gained 12 cards for a province to end the game.

Apparently he had been playing Throne Room + Torturer
so much that everyone else was somewhat upset.
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Stephen Schaefer
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If we assume as stated in the opening post that a way to trash the Curses exists, I will take the Curses almost every time, perhaps even in both plays of the Torturer. I'm a bit of a trash-happy player, for which reason I stopped fearing the Curse a while ago. Even with the Upgrade, I have the ability to trash the Curse and gain nothing, or better yet, Bridge it first and convert it to an Estate or better.

When the capacity to trash exists, this is a no-brainer for me. Take that away, and I would probably split the effects to keep three cards, and try to make up the points.
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Jeremy Marquis
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jmellby wrote:
In our Dominion tournament over the weekend I saw another table
when when a player placed:
Throne Room + Throne Room + Torturer + Torturer
He gained 12 cards for a province to end the game.

Apparently he had been playing Throne Room + Torturer
so much that everyone else was somewhat upset.


Haha, hey John, that was me and I came here to say that it seems broken. I had never played Intrigue before, and this was not a great first impression.

I had villages, torturers, and a couple of throne rooms. Since they could be sure that I would get to play at least 2 torturers, the other players opted to discard rather than get curses. Pretty quickly I was going through my whole deck each turn, and they discarded all their cards each of my turns. This resulted in me playing by myself, turn after turn. I bought 3 provinces and ended the game with a mercy kill rather than going for points (I still want them to like me).

There were no cards in play that allowed you to trash cards. I got these pretty early while everyone's decks were pretty small, so the idea of adding 2+ curses per turn would have destroyed their decks. There was also a couple of swindlers in my deck which cut down on their money and added curses, annoying but not the real issue.

The village + torturer + throne room seems like a really powerful combo, but maybe it was card set we were playing with - no trash cards, no moat.
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Dave G
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CannonFodder-jm wrote:
jmellby wrote:
In our Dominion tournament over the weekend I saw another table
when when a player placed:
Throne Room + Throne Room + Torturer + Torturer
He gained 12 cards for a province to end the game.

Apparently he had been playing Throne Room + Torturer
so much that everyone else was somewhat upset.


Haha, hey John, that was me and I came here to say that it seems broken. I had never played Intrigue before, and this was not a great first impression.

I had villages, torturers, and a couple of throne rooms. Since they could be sure that I would get to play at least 2 torturers, the other players opted to discard rather than get curses. Pretty quickly I was going through my whole deck each turn, and they discarded all their cards each of my turns. This resulted in me playing by myself, turn after turn. I bought 3 provinces and ended the game with a mercy kill rather than going for points (I still want them to like me).

There were no cards in play that allowed you to trash cards. I got these pretty early while everyone's decks were pretty small, so the idea of adding 2+ curses per turn would have destroyed their decks. There was also a couple of swindlers in my deck which cut down on their money and added curses, annoying but not the real issue.

The village + torturer + throne room seems like a really powerful combo, but maybe it was card set we were playing with - no trash cards, no moat.


How is Village/throne room/torturer any different in that case than throne room/witch would have been? The card isn't broken, your opponents just didn't make good choices if they just discarded all their cards every turn. Also, what were they doing while they let you build this monster deck? I'm sure there will be a learning curve with Intrigue like there was for Dominion when it first came out. I just think this is an example of poor play, not a broken card.
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Myke Madsen
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
what were they doing while they let you build this monster deck?


A couple Throne Rooms, a couple Torturers and a Village is a monster deck?

I just think there are some sets that are brutal and will largely be determined by luck.

I played a game on BSW the other night where my opponent got Throne Room/Swindler on his third turn and subsequently got very lucky in his Swindles. Every card of value I purchased he was able to Swindle into something useless. That game was effectively over after 6 turns.
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Dan Schaeffer
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HappyProle wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
what were they doing while they let you build this monster deck?


A couple Throne Rooms, a couple Torturers and a Village is a monster deck?


If he was able to get to a point where he was playing "a couple of torturers" on every (or almost every) turn, then his opponents had to have fallen asleep at the switch to some extent.
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Dave G
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HappyProle wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
what were they doing while they let you build this monster deck?


A couple Throne Rooms, a couple Torturers and a Village is a monster deck?

I just think there are some sets that are brutal and will largely be determined by luck.

I played a game on BSW the other night where my opponent got Throne Room/Swindler on his third turn and subsequently got very lucky in his Swindles. Every card of value I purchased he was able to Swindle into something useless. That game was effectively over after 6 turns.


My point was that this isn't substantially different than someone getting a couple throne rooms, a couple witches, and a village or two. I think people are trying to play differently because of the new cards, and forgetting the fundamentals of the game.

Also, as Dan pointed out, the other players have had at least five turns by now. Why aren't they doing something to slow him down?
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Rob Neuhaus
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Another consideration. If you are before a tortured player who has a masquerade. Watch his/her pick. If he/she picks a curse, it's a signal that a masquerade is coming, and hence you'd probably want to draw a curse to pass off to the next player. Likewise, if he/she discards and the cards discarded are crap, I think a masquerade is much less likely to played.
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David Onstott
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CannonFodder-jm wrote:
jmellby wrote:
In our Dominion tournament over the weekend I saw another table
when when a player placed:
Throne Room + Throne Room + Torturer + Torturer
He gained 12 cards for a province to end the game.

Apparently he had been playing Throne Room + Torturer
so much that everyone else was somewhat upset.


Haha, hey John, that was me and I came here to say that it seems broken. I had never played Intrigue before, and this was not a great first impression.

I had villages, torturers, and a couple of throne rooms. Since they could be sure that I would get to play at least 2 torturers, the other players opted to discard rather than get curses. Pretty quickly I was going through my whole deck each turn, and they discarded all their cards each of my turns. This resulted in me playing by myself, turn after turn. I bought 3 provinces and ended the game with a mercy kill rather than going for points (I still want them to like me).

There were no cards in play that allowed you to trash cards. I got these pretty early while everyone's decks were pretty small, so the idea of adding 2+ curses per turn would have destroyed their decks. There was also a couple of swindlers in my deck which cut down on their money and added curses, annoying but not the real issue.

The village + torturer + throne room seems like a really powerful combo, but maybe it was card set we were playing with - no trash cards, no moat.


As soon as you bought your first torturer, I would have bought swindlers. It sounds like you were drawing up your villages and torturers every turn, which means that throne rooming a swindler would have a high probability of trashing those.
This, in fact, happened in a game not to long ago when me friend pulled up 5 on his first draw and picked up a torturer. I bought 2 swindlers with 2 buys, (which I later used to buy a gold and a torturer of my own) gave him a curse with one of them and pulled out his torturer with the next. When your deck is small, or when you buy multiples of a card, you are increasing your chances of drawing one every turn, but you are also increasing my chances of picking it up with the swindler or (though I never, usually, would) Saboteur. If you combine these with Tributes and Torturers, your opponent potentially could lose 2 cards in hand, and 3 cards from his deck. While you gain cards/actions/money with each of them.
Worst case scenario and the only one that exists is the torturer, then take the curses in order to buy them yourself. Just never let an opponent monopolize an attack card, ever. As a general rule of strategy.
The best defense is a good offense.
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Kevin Cachia
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HappyProle wrote:
If you've got 5 cards and an opponent plays Throne Room/Torturer what would you do?


I would definitely curse. Every time.

I might not take a Curse, or I might, or I might take two Curses, but in any event, I would definitely curse. Just because. Even I was holding a Chapel I was planning on using anyway; even if the Torturer actually did me a favor by getting my 4 Gardens out of my hand so my Library could draw more. Never miss an opportunity to curse your opponent, that's my motto, even if he isn't Cursing you.

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