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Subject: Blowthrough Question #239804 rss

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Stan Noordman
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So.. I'm firing my chaingun at an imp at range 6. I roll 3d/1r/ammo with red and both green dice give 2 range. That's 5 range plus the accuracy bonus of the chaingun. So I narrowly hit the imp with 3 damage.

Here comes the blowthrough question. There's a trite next to it, which is behind a 1x1 obstacle.

a) Can I walk my fire to the trite, which I actually cannot see?
b) Removing a green dice, do I still have sufficient range?
c) If b is true, what if the trite is even further away (range 7)? Like behind the imp?
d) Do I need to reroll anything when removing dice?
e) Does walking cost, if ammo was spent, extra ammo per step?
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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XGDragon wrote:
So.. I'm firing my chaingun at an imp at range 6. I roll 3d/1r/ammo with red and both green dice give 2 range. That's 5 range plus the accuracy bonus of the chaingun. So I narrowly hit the imp with 3 damage.

Here comes the blowthrough question. There's a trite next to it, which is behind a 1x1 obstacle.

a) Can I walk my fire to the trite, which I actually cannot see?


No. If that trite had been directly behind the imp, you could now walk the attack to it.

Quote:
b) Removing a green dice, do I still have sufficient range?
c) If b is true, what if the trite is even further away (range 7)? Like behind the imp?
d) Do I need to reroll anything when removing dice?
e) Does walking cost, if ammo was spent, extra ammo per step?


You make a new attack roll for each attack. In this case you would roll again 1 Red + 1 Green (possibly causing another ammo loss, etc.). That is if you wanted to walk the attack, not sure I'd go for it with those odds.
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Ryan
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Quote:
a) Can I walk my fire to the trite, which I actually cannot see


If you trace a line from center of the firing marine's square to the center of the target square and the line crosses the blocking terrain or another figure, you may not fire at the trite.

If the imp was the sole piece blocking your line of sight, he has been destroyed with your roll resulting in 3 damage and is no longer blocking your LOS to the trite. If after this your LOS goes through the square with the obstacle, you are not able to target the trite.

Quote:
b) Removing a green dice, do I still have sufficient range?


Yes. Assuming you have no accuracy modifiers on your marine cards, you could hit an enemy up to 7 spaces away using the blowthrough on the chaingun. Sacrificing one green die leaves you with one red (3 range max) + one green (3 range max) + 1 accuracy icon on the chaingun. You could still hit & kill a trite with this.

Quote:
c) If b is true, what if the trite is even further away (range 7)? Like behind the imp?


See above answer.

Quote:
d) Do I need to reroll anything when removing dice


The blowthrough is considered a second attack, so you need to reroll the one red die and the one green die you have remaining. You don't use your first roll results for your second roll.

Quote:
e) Does walking cost, if ammo was spent, extra ammo per step?


Considering that the blowthrough is a separate attack, a blowthrough only costs an ammo token if you roll an ammo icon on a subsequent attack.
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Stanislaw Lipa
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XGDragon wrote:

b) Removing a green dice, do I still have sufficient range?


answer is in FAQ
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Doom/doomfaq.p...

"2B - if the space walked into has a figure in it, the player makes a new attack against that figure, taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack"

blowthrough is nothing else like showing in visual way spread zone in shotgun/minigun, its something like 'Blast' - You can see how far You can walk away from target space. i.e. if You target a space marked with "0"

minigun:

xxxxx
xxxxx
xx0xx
xxxxx
xxxxx

shotgun:

xxx
x0x
xxx

space marked with "x" shows how far You can go, so now You can see how really nice minigun/shotgun can be.
 
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Travis Hall
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stasiekl wrote:
XGDragon wrote:

b) Removing a green dice, do I still have sufficient range?


answer is in FAQ
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Doom/doomfaq.p...

"2B - if the space walked into has a figure in it, the player makes a new attack against that figure, taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack"

blowthrough is nothing else like showing in visual way spread zone in shotgun/minigun, its something like 'Blast' - You can see how far You can walk away from target space. i.e. if You target a space marked with "0"

minigun:

xxxxx
xxxxx
xx0xx
xxxxx
xxxxx

shotgun:

xxx
x0x
xxx

space marked with "x" shows how far You can go, so now You can see how really nice minigun/shotgun can be.

While your diagrams are correct in showing how close the blowthrough target has to be to the original target, this isn't actually an answer to the question that was asked. He asked about range, and as others have pointed out, the attacker does still have to roll sufficient range to hit with the blowthrough attack (on less dice, due to the loss of a blue or green die). The target of the blowthrough attack has to be both close enough to the original target to even attempt the roll and within the range rolled for the blowthrough attack to be successful.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Wraith wrote:

While your diagrams are correct in showing how close the blowthrough target has to be to the original target, this isn't actually an answer to the question that was asked. He asked about range, and as others have pointed out, the attacker does still have to roll sufficient range to hit with the blowthrough attack (on less dice, due to the loss of a blue or green die). The target of the blowthrough attack has to be both close enough to the original target to even attempt the roll and within the range rolled for the blowthrough attack to be successful.


Officer/Efficient Killer + Shotgun against adjacent 2x2 monster cool (or 2x1 if you want to get real close to the poochies), combine with Special Ops for nastiness.
 
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Stanislaw Lipa
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Wraith wrote:


the attacker does still have to roll sufficient range to hit with the blowthrough attack (on less dice, due to the loss of a blue or green die).


stasiekl wrote:


answer is in FAQ
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Doom/doomfaq.p...

"2B - if the space walked into has a figure in it, the player makes a new attack against that figure, taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack"


which part of "taking into account ANY DICE THAT WERE DROPPED to walk the attack" You dont understand ?

and about that question

XGDragon wrote:


b) Removing a green dice, do I still have sufficient range?


You dont remove any dice from dice pool when You gonna shoot, You only drop dice to see how far You can go from target space, and of course range matters, like any other 'ammo bullet' symbol matters.
Range does'nt matters when its melee attack.

--------------------------------------------

XGDragon wrote:


So.. I'm firing my chaingun at an imp at range 6. I roll 3d/1r/ammo with red and both green dice give 2 range. That's 5 range plus the accuracy bonus of the chaingun. So I narrowly hit the imp with 3 damage.

Here comes the blowthrough question. There's a trite next to it, which is behind a 1x1 obstacle.

a) Can I walk my fire to the trite, which I actually cannot see?


if You cant trace LOS to the target space - You can't attack.

Quote:
b) Removing a green dice, do I still have sufficient range?


You take every dice according to the gun and You roll. Range always matters unless melee. (more info is above)

Quote:
c) If b is true, what if the trite is even further away (range 7)? Like behind the imp?


1st = LOS
2nd = sufficient range on roll + bonuses

Quote:
d) Do I need to re-roll anything when removing dice?


You see monster - You take gun, trace LOS, roll, now You wonder about Imp near by, You count how far You can go, is Imp in range from target space by dropping dices, if it is - take all dices (red + 2 greens) and You roll again. if You kill it and behind is Trite, and this Trite is in range from target space - You take all dices and roll. this is real simple. every attack/roll is normal attack = if You got another 'ammo' symbol then You discard 'ammo', if You miss (X) or no range on dices then miss too.

Quote:
e) Does walking cost, if ammo was spent, extra ammo per step?


walking dont cost. only drop dice to see how far You can shoot. if You got ammo symbol on dice then discard ammo. so if You got no luck You can spend 3 ammo on 1 attack from minigun.

remember - a single attack can never be re-rolled more than once.
 
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Johannes Haglund
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stasiekl wrote:
You dont remove any dice from dice pool when You gonna shoot, You only drop dice to see how far You can go from target space, and of course range matters, like any other 'ammo bullet' symbol matters.


Sorry, I don't agree with your explanation. I take the phrase "taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack" as meaning that you should take the fact that the dice were dropped out of the dice pool into account, and thus not roll the dropped dice. If it were the other way around, the whole bit about dropping dice would be redundant, and the rules would simply state that you can walk the attack as many spaces as there are green and blue dice in the dice pool.
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Travis Hall
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Frankysan wrote:
stasiekl wrote:
You dont remove any dice from dice pool when You gonna shoot, You only drop dice to see how far You can go from target space, and of course range matters, like any other 'ammo bullet' symbol matters.

Sorry, I don't agree with your explanation. I take the phrase "taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack" as meaning that you should take the fact that the dice were dropped out of the dice pool into account, and thus not roll the dropped dice.

Yup. Also, the rulebook shows an example of a blow-through attack. It even has a picture of the dice rolled for both the original attack and the second attack from the blow-through.
 
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Travis Hall
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stasiekl wrote:
remember - a single attack can never be re-rolled more than once.

Also, I take this to mean that you think you can't get more than one extra attack using blow-through. That would be incorrect.

The rules to which the "never re-roll more than once" principle applies are dodge, aim and similar effects which cause the dice for a single attack to be re-rolled. Blow-through does not involve re-rolling an attack at all. Instead, blow-through allows the attacker to make extra attacks. Nothing is re-rolled; rather, a whole new set of dice are rolled.

The chaingun can be used to make three attacks within the single marine attack action. The first would use red+green+green, the second would use red+green, the third would use a red die only.

Furthermore, an aim order or other similar effect could be used to produce a re-roll of chosen dice on any one of those rolls, or a dodge ability could do the same (assuming aim and dodge don't both apply). A multi-square invader positioned appropriately to be attacked by two out of the three attacks could even dodge both of those attacks (if the invader player happened to be holding two Dodge cards).
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Wraith wrote:
The chaingun can be used to make three attacks within the single marine attack action. The first would use red+green+green, the second would use red+green, the third would use a red die only.


Just to clarify, you can make those 3 attacks IF all 3 invaders are adjacent, like 123 or 321 (or up and down).
 
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Travis Hall
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Dam the Man wrote:
Wraith wrote:
The chaingun can be used to make three attacks within the single marine attack action. The first would use red+green+green, the second would use red+green, the third would use a red die only.


Just to clarify, you can make those 3 attacks IF all 3 invaders are adjacent, like 123 or 321 (or up and down).

Yes. In fact, subject to all restrictions applicable to blow-through. Adjacency isn't the only requirement I didn't mention there. (LOS to every figure would be another.)

The point was that each attack is a completely separate attack. Neither of the blow-through attacks would be a re-roll of an attack that has come before it.
 
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Stanislaw Lipa
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yep, You are right guys, i was mislead by phrase 'each attack is a completely separate attack' but i was remembered when KevinW said what was included in FAQ that

'the marine player makes a new attack against that figure, taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack. This new attack works exactly like any other attack.'
but then later he said
'Blow-through requires multiple attack rolls, so can use multiple ammo, and each attack gets weaker and weaker. To make up for this relative weakness, it can be used most effectively on oversized figures.'

so now i understand why dropping dices like that, its like focusing on target and THEN try to hit something else, so now i'm happy but could someone help me reveal secret what this 'whole taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack' is for ? i'm a little bit confused with this one.
 
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Florian Faust
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stasiekl wrote:
but could someone help me reveal secret what this 'whole taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack' is for ? i'm a little bit confused with this one.


Normally it is one attack action -> one attack.
With blowthrough it is one attack action- > multiple attacks on different spaces.
The first attack is made with the weapon stats. If you hit (no X and enough range) you can "walk" the attack to another space.
For each space walked you have to drop either a green or blue die.
The new attack is made with the normal weapon stat, but taking in account any dice dropped. So you throw less dice, one for each space walked. It is somehow just repeating or reenforcing the dropping part.

But one thing got completely wrong in this thread!
Each following attack does not need to have enough range. The range part is handled by dropping the dice for each walked space. So you can hit a target at maximum distance and walk the attack to a neighbouring space, what should be impossible when dropping dice.


Sorry somehow I mixed up the rules somewhere....
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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saltopus wrote:
The first attack is made with the weapon stats. If you hit (no X and enough range)


You can walk regardless of the first attacks hit/miss (as long as in a campaign your weapon didn't break).

"After the initial attack on the target
space is made (regardless of whether it hits or not), the attacker may
roll another attack against a space..." (p. 12)

Quote:
For each space walked you have to drop either a green or blue die.


Green or Yellow die.

Also, saltopus, what do you mean when you each attack doesn't need to have enough range? Checking the rulebook example for BT, first attack is Red + 2 Green, then the next is walked 2 spaces, dropping 1 Green for each space, leaving 1 Red for the second attack. You're not saying the second attack will hit no matter what range is on the Red die I hope.

Of course, the rulebook example is a poor decision on the Marine's part, better to shoot at the Zombie in the distance first, then walk closer, so you don't need to roll 2+ range on 1 Red die.
 
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Florian Faust
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Dam the Man wrote:

Green or Yellow die.

Green or blue. The yellow one is a main die, don't mix up with descend.

You're right on the rest. Somehow I made up rules which weren't there. whistle Maybe the example mislead me....
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Rauli Kettunen
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saltopus wrote:
Dam the Man wrote:

Green or Yellow die.

Green or blue. The yellow one is a main die, don't mix up with descend.


Heh, you're right. I looked at the wrong sentence in the BT example blush .

Also, I play Doom, not it's bastard spawn .
 
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Travis Hall
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stasiekl wrote:
could someone help me reveal secret what this 'whole taking into account any dice that were dropped to walk the attack' is for ?

You take into account the fact that one or more green dice are not counted towards the attack. It is just a reminder not to roll those dice when making a blow-through attack.
 
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