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Subject: A dozen questions about rules v.1.2 rss

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Brian Eggert
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Are all 12 dice rolled for each and every action?

Can I have multiple occupations?

Do I retain the benefits of each occupation throughout the game?

Can I combine single food die results with double food die results (e.g., 2 single foods + 1 double food = 4 food)?

The rules for the “1-3 matching animals” action state that “you may discard previously taken animals”. Does this mean that I can discard my 1 sheep from my ONLY pasture in order to make it a pasture for the 3 boars that I just rolled?

Can I consume grain as food without an oven?

Can I build more than one room of a house during a single “house” action?

Must I build a pasture before I can collect animals from the die rolls or can I have a single house pet?

Must I plow a field before I can collect grain or vegetables from die rolls?

The pasture & field actions provide 1 animal or grain/vege that counts as 2 of that type. Why don’t I just take 2 animals or 2 grains/veges?

The –1 penalties are unclear. If I have 0 sheep during the harvest, is the penalty –1 point because I don’t have sheep or –3 points because it takes 3 sheep to make a “unit” of sheep?

If two players are tied for the “most” of something, does anyone get bonus points?

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Hanno Girke
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We have some more.

Do your original 2 farmers need 3 food as usual or 2 as the babies?
If you get a baby, when does it get to work?
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Jesse McGatha
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Wow, lots of questions. I guess I need to start a FAQ (or expand the rules).

brianeikunst wrote:
Are all 12 dice rolled for each and every action?


Yes.

brianeikunst wrote:
Can I have multiple occupations?


Yes.

brianeikunst wrote:
Do I retain the benefits of each occupation throughout the game?


Yes.

brianeikunst wrote:
Can I combine single food die results with double food die results (e.g., 2 single foods + 1 double food = 4 food)?


Yes, you collect one type of Produce (all Food, all Grain, or all Vegetables).

brianeikunst wrote:
The rules for the “1-3 matching animals” action state that “you may discard previously taken animals”. Does this mean that I can discard my 1 sheep from my ONLY pasture in order to make it a pasture for the 3 boars that I just rolled?


Yes, exactly.

brianeikunst wrote:
Can I consume grain as food without an oven?


Not in this version of the rules, no. I've been considering adding this for verisimilitude with Agricola.

brianeikunst wrote:
Can I build more than one room of a house during a single “house” action?


No.

brianeikunst wrote:
Must I build a pasture before I can collect animals from the die rolls or can I have a single house pet?


No house pet. You must have previously built the pasture, or you can take one animal at the same time as building a pasture (but recording 2 animals).

brianeikunst wrote:
Must I plow a field before I can collect grain or vegetables from die rolls?


No. You can think of this as going to market or working on a neighbors farm in payment for the grain/vegetables.

brianeikunst wrote:
The pasture & field actions provide 1 animal or grain/vege that counts as 2 of that type. Why don’t I just take 2 animals or 2 grains/veges?


You could. However, you'd have negative points from not having a field or pasture. Further, animal types are limited by the numbers of pastures you own. Also, you often want to take a Vegetable (if available) along with your Field, since Vegetables are harder to roll than grain.

brianeikunst wrote:
The –1 penalties are unclear. If I have 0 sheep during the harvest, is the penalty –1 point because I don’t have sheep or –3 points because it takes 3 sheep to make a “unit” of sheep?


If you have 0 sheep, you score -1. If you have 1-2 sheep, you score 0 (since you always round down on units). If you have 3-5 you score 1, etc. I can see where this is a little spartan in the description.

brianeikunst wrote:
If two players are tied for the “most” of something, does anyone get bonus points?


No. You must have a clear majority.

Hanno wrote:
Do your original 2 farmers need 3 food as usual or 2 as the babies?


For simplicity, it is 2 food each for both your original farmers plus any babies (unless you have the Midwife, which reduces the Food requirements for babies only).

Hanno wrote:
If you get a baby, when does it get to work?


Immediately on your next action (again for simplification). Essentially taking the baby action immediately replaces itself with a new action. It's impossible to chain together forever, though, since you need a room in your house for each baby.

-Jesse
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Tim Harrison
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You got the attention of Hanno... nice!

Maybe you'll get a contract!
 
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Hanno Girke
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One more:

Can more than one player chose the same occupation?
 
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Johan Sporre
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Jester wrote:
brianeikunst wrote:
Must I build a pasture before I can collect animals from the die rolls or can I have a single house pet?


No house pet. You must have previously built the pasture, or you can take one animal at the same time as building a pasture (but recording 2 animals).


I don't follow this. Recording an animal as two, means you have enough to breed in a harvest, right? What's the difference between taking an animal and recording it as two, and simply taking two animals?


A couple of questions of my own:

As I understand the rules the House-die is used both for expanding your hut, and for making babies. Can you do both with one roll in the same turn?

In the text for the Midwife it is implied that it costs food to make a baby (besides what it costs in a harvest), but I don't see this anywhere else. Are babies free to make?

In the Setup you're supposed to roll 3*3 Resource dice. Do these dice have to match for you to write the resources on the score sheet? Otherwise you can get 9 resources from the start, and that just seem a lot.

In the text for "A Player's Turn" a "scrath paper" is mentioned. Is this the same paper/sheet you get with the last page of the rules?
 
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Jesse McGatha
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Hanno wrote:
One more:

Can more than one player chose the same occupation?


In the current rules, yes. The occupations are not equal in power and someone might take an occupation to better the chances on a future turn of getting the occupation they really want (since taking an occupation you already have allows you to pick the occupation you want).
 
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Jesse McGatha
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Steinman wrote:
Jester wrote:
No house pet. You must have previously built the pasture, or you can take one animal at the same time as building a pasture (but recording 2 animals).


I don't follow this. Recording an animal as two, means you have enough to breed in a harvest, right? What's the difference between taking an animal and recording it as two, and simply taking two animals?


It is very desirable to use this to take a cow, if present, because cows are very hard to roll (1 in 6 chance). Overall odds of getting a pasture and at least 1 cow is roughly 1 in 20. It is far more likely you'll get a pair of cows this way then to roll it naturally. To roll a pair (or more) of cows at the same time as rolling a pasture is roughly a 1 in 100 chance.

Steinman wrote:
A couple of questions of my own:

As I understand the rules the House-die is used both for expanding your hut, and for making babies. Can you do both with one roll in the same turn?


No. You can use your action for one or the other.

Steinman wrote:
In the text for the Midwife it is implied that it costs food to make a baby (besides what it costs in a harvest), but I don't see this anywhere else. Are babies free to make?


Yes they are free; this was a left-over from the v1.1 rules, sorry!

Steinman wrote:
In the Setup you're supposed to roll 3*3 Resource dice. Do these dice have to match for you to write the resources on the score sheet? Otherwise you can get 9 resources from the start, and that just seem a lot.


Yes, you get 9 resources to start. It seems like a lot... but the game moves along quickly and you have very little time to collect resources. Partially this was done to jump-start the game a little to make it play a bit faster.

Steinman wrote:
In the text for "A Player's Turn" a "scrath paper" is mentioned. Is this the same paper/sheet you get with the last page of the rules?


Yes, same thing. The original design for the dice contest just had you write things down on scratch paper. I found, given the many things to count for scoring, it was easiest to provide a score sheet that also reminded you of key rules/costs. I'll get that cleaned up in the next version of the rules.

Thanks for the questions!
 
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Hanno Girke
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Jester wrote:

It is very desirable to use this to take a cow, if present, because cows are very hard to roll (1 in 6 chance). Overall odds of getting a pasture and at least 1 cow is roughly 1 in 20. It is far more likely you'll get a pair of cows this way then to roll it naturally. To roll a pair (or more) of cows at the same time as rolling a pasture is roughly a 1 in 100 chance.


Sorry to correct you, but the chance of getting a pasture and a cow is about 1 in 7:

The odds to have no cow on your dice is 125/216, so the odds to have at least one cow are 91/216. Multiplied with the chance to have a pasture (1/3), you're at 91/648, little more than 14%.
The odds to roll two or more cows with a pasture are nearly 2.5%.
 
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Hanno Girke
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Jester wrote:
Steinman wrote:
In the Setup you're supposed to roll 3*3 Resource dice. Do these dice have to match for you to write the resources on the score sheet? Otherwise you can get 9 resources from the start, and that just seem a lot.


Yes, you get 9 resources to start. It seems like a lot... but the game moves along quickly and you have very little time to collect resources. Partially this was done to jump-start the game a little to make it play a bit faster.


We tested an alternative version: when taking a set of dice to perform an action, you could use resource dice in that set to pay the cost. So a set would for example consist of "Pasture" "Boar" "Wood".
Only if no appropriate die was rolled, you paid from your scoresheet.
We reduced the initial resources to just 1 triplet of resource dice. Have to test more to see if this works. From the intuitive sie, it made more sense.
 
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Jesse McGatha
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Hanno wrote:

Sorry to correct you, but the chance of getting a pasture and a cow is about 1 in 7:

The odds to have no cow on your dice is 125/216, so the odds to have at least one cow are 91/216. Multiplied with the chance to have a pasture (1/3), you're at 91/648, little more than 14%.
The odds to roll two or more cows with a pasture are nearly 2.5%.


Ah, I knew I'd screw that up. That's what I get for replying in a hurry. Stats is one of those things I have to sit down and work through very methodically to get the right answer.
 
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Jesse McGatha
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Hanno wrote:
We tested an alternative version: when taking a set of dice to perform an action, you could use resource dice in that set to pay the cost. So a set would for example consist of "Pasture" "Boar" "Wood".
Only if no appropriate die was rolled, you paid from your scoresheet.
We reduced the initial resources to just 1 triplet of resource dice. Have to test more to see if this works. From the intuitive sie, it made more sense.


You might want to check out the v1.0 of the rules then, as things behaved this way in that version. I mostly changed it to try to capture some of that always scrambling for resources feeling from Agricola. I've also considered just starting you with 1 of each resource and that's it.

Edit: To clarify a bit more, I haven't tested this, but I would suggest trying starting with 1 of each resource, allowing you to use resources from your roll when appropriate, but only allowing you to use one occupation a turn (so you can set the Farm die to House, but you couldn't also set the Resource to Stone... if you didn't roll them naturally, you'd have to pay from your previously collected resources).
 
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Scott O'Brien
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more questions and a few comments:

I think I like the suggestion hanno Made... being able to using food or resources rolled is nice. Also, i started with 5 resources, (which is half of the 1.2 starting) and it worked well. also, instead of starting with 2 food, you should just roll 2 food dice (count carrots & grain as food for the initial roll) this leads to an initial start of 2-4 food.



When rolling a house, with multiple resources... can you build multiple rooms at once?


why not seperate upgrades from new rooms? you could still use the house symbol for both, just pay either 2 bricks to upgrade or 1 brick 1 reed to add a room. it seems to easy to go straight to a stone upgrade on the first time you roll a house.
or
upgrade and build at the same time... ist added room must pay with wood. 2nd with brick. 3rd with stone.


Suppose I rolled a field and three grain...
Can I plant all field for 3 = 1 field + 6 grain
Can I plant 1 and just keep the other 2 = 1 field + 4 grain
or can i only plant 1 field of 2 grain.



Some of the occupations (Mayor and builder) seem a little powerful to me... instead of paying a food to keep it, you should have to pay a food every time you use it.


if you have multiple actions, do you have to reroll?
Suppose I have 1 baby, and roll 3 cows, 6 food, and 3 stone.
Can I use all 3 of my actions to just take those without having to reroll?


do you harvest grain or vegetable from a field? The rule doenst make sense as it is...
 
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Jesse McGatha
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sao123 wrote:
I think I like the suggestion hanno Made... being able to using food or resources rolled is nice. Also, i started with 5 resources, (which is half of the 1.2 starting) and it worked well. also, instead of starting with 2 food, you should just roll 2 food dice (count carrots & grain as food for the initial roll) this leads to an initial start of 2-4 food.


Interesting thoughts. I'll consider when I go to boil all this feedback into the next version.

sao123 wrote:
When rolling a house, with multiple resources... can you build multiple rooms at once?


No.


sao123 wrote:
why not seperate upgrades from new rooms? you could still use the house symbol for both, just pay either 2 bricks to upgrade or 1 brick 1 reed to add a room. it seems to easy to go straight to a stone upgrade on the first time you roll a house.
or
upgrade and build at the same time... ist added room must pay with wood. 2nd with brick. 3rd with stone.


This was definitely an area that was simplified to make a shorter game. I felt like capturing the feel of Agricola was important, but maybe not every aspect. That said, I'm not averse to allowing someone to upgrade a house later (at the cost of that extra action and resources), perhaps for 2 brick or 2 stone plus a house to upgrade (can upgrade directly from wood to stone). I'll think on this some more.

sao123 wrote:
Suppose I rolled a field and three grain...
Can I plant all field for 3 = 1 field + 6 grain
Can I plant 1 and just keep the other 2 = 1 field + 4 grain
or can i only plant 1 field of 2 grain.


The last one. You get 1 field and 2 grain.

sao123 wrote:
Some of the occupations (Mayor and builder) seem a little powerful to me... instead of paying a food to keep it, you should have to pay a food every time you use it.


Mayor is definitely powerful. Builder I think has some counterbalance in that he's not always useful. I've been thinking of ways to reduce the mayor's power a little bit; this might be a good solution.

sao123 wrote:
if you have multiple actions, do you have to reroll?
Suppose I have 1 baby, and roll 3 cows, 6 food, and 3 stone.
Can I use all 3 of my actions to just take those without having to reroll?


Yes, you must re-roll. You do 1 action, then the next person does their action, etc. until everyone has done all their actions (note that because some people might have more actions, they may do a couple actions in a row). I thought it best to be consistent here and say you always roll at the start of your action. I considered allowing a player to use the "unused" portion of the previous person's roll, but felt this would slow down the game and give even more power to the person who had extra actions.

sao123 wrote:
do you harvest grain or vegetable from a field? The rule doenst make sense as it is...


No. This was a simplification. You always get the grain/vegetables immediately.
 
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Scott O'Brien
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I posted a test session... and more rules questions:



If I roll a pasteur and 3 sheep, why cant you take all 3 sheep and put them in the pasteur (ignoring the take 2 of that type rule?)
the rarity of the cow rolls would seem to make this a logical play.


i dont understand if/why you are scoring at each harvest...
Creates a lot of unnecessary negative points...
Also seems to imply it is more important when you do something than just getting it done.

do you score your original 2 rooms as in agricola? or only score the rooms you add yourself?

Is the baby limit 3 or 4??

shouldnt the workshops cost the corresponding resources? instead of all being 1 wood

pottery->brick
joinery->wood
basketmaster->reed
stonecutter->stone?
 
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Jesse McGatha
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I made some comments on the session thread. Now coming back here.

sao123 wrote:
If I roll a pasteur and 3 sheep, why cant you take all 3 sheep and put them in the pasteur (ignoring the take 2 of that type rule?)
the rarity of the cow rolls would seem to make this a logical play.


The idea here was that if you can take up to 3 animals as a stand-alone action, it makes sense thematically that you should be able to do less if you're also building a pasture.

sao123 wrote:
i dont understand if/why you are scoring at each harvest...
Creates a lot of unnecessary negative points...
Also seems to imply it is more important when you do something than just getting it done.


A few reasons:

1. It introduces a similar level of tension as in Agricola about when you do things. In Agricola this is done by other players taking the "juicy" spots. Here, it's done by forcing you to time your actions.

2. It provides more variation in strategy and scoring opportunities for the "most" bonuses.

3. It thematically has a good feel of "barely scraping by" the first harvest, followed by steady prospering.

4. It creates a similar amount of negative scoring as in Agricola at the end of the game.

I had similar concern about the negative scoring from a local playtester. This could be "fixed" by starting you out with 10 or 20 points, so you feel like you're borrowing against your starting capital to get the farm off the ground.

sao123 wrote:
do you score your original 2 rooms as in agricola? or only score the rooms you add yourself?


Only the rooms you add yourself.

sao123 wrote:
Is the baby limit 3 or 4??


Should be 4. It would be pretty unusual for someone to get that many.

sao123 wrote:

shouldnt the workshops cost the corresponding resources? instead of all being 1 wood

pottery->brick
joinery->wood
basketmaster->reed
stonecutter->stone?


Ultimately, you're building a building, so building out of reed didn't make sense to me (ignoring thatched structures, since they would also require wood). I also felt that wood was a little underused for how prevalent it was, so I chose to make them all require wood to build the workshop.

Great questions, thanks!
 
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Scott O'Brien
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my midwife question was:
if you take the midwife, do your babies not count for score?
that is implied in the rule:

Final harverst only (unless player has midwife):
+1/2/3/4 if player has 1/2/3/4 babies

so midwife = no points?


if you feel the wood is a little useless, you could allow the optional building of a barn for +1 points, by spending 1 wood at the same time you get a pasteur (total of 2 wood = 1 fences/1 barn)



About the Round 2 action 2...
I was suggesting (and I played it so) that when you claim a pasteur, you should be able to bank the animals you roll of 1 type, rather than the doubeling (i dont think you need it) because you have an opportunity to roll up to 3 like cows every action... not very good odds, but good enough.
the doubleing make sense for planting a wheat or vegetable because it grows (since thats what happens in the real game), but it feels weird to always get 2 cows for your first time, because cows are usually low in number.
 
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Jesse McGatha
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sao123 wrote:
my midwife question was:
if you take the midwife, do your babies not count for score?
that is implied in the rule:

Final harverst only (unless player has midwife):
+1/2/3/4 if player has 1/2/3/4 babies

so midwife = no points?


Ah, I see where the confusion lies. Since the rules say you score every harvest, if you have a midwife and a baby by the first harvest, you score 1 point for the baby during that harvest. If you have a baby but no midwife, you only score points for babies during the final harvest. I can clarify that in the next version of the rules.

sao123 wrote:
if you feel the wood is a little useless, you could allow the optional building of a barn for +1 points, by spending 1 wood at the same time you get a pasteur (total of 2 wood = 1 fences/1 barn)


True, but I was trying to simplify a few things out of the game, of which barns was one.

sao123 wrote:
About the Round 2 action 2...
I was suggesting (and I played it so) that when you claim a pasteur, you should be able to bank the animals you roll of 1 type, rather than the doubeling (i dont think you need it) because you have an opportunity to roll up to 3 like cows every action... not very good odds, but good enough.
the doubleing make sense for planting a wheat or vegetable because it grows (since thats what happens in the real game), but it feels weird to always get 2 cows for your first time, because cows are usually low in number.


I see what you're saying. I made the animals double just like fields for simplicity, but maybe I should have stuck with the v1.1 rule which was that you could take 1 animal die (no doubling). I think it's important that Pasture+animal gets you fewer animals than just taking only animals, both for thematic reasons and to prevent diminishing the usefulness of the rancher.
 
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