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Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization» Forums » Strategy

Subject: In defense of Homer rss

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Joe Lux
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Let us assume that there are four basic strategies: Military Game, Science game, Colonial game and Cultural game. Homer can help develope three of these possibilities.

Military/Colonial Game: You can quickly build warriors at a discount, both before and after colonizing. Navigation (a key card), or Colossus (if necessary--at least it is only two actions to build) are important combinations with Homer. The need to have that extra warrior available at all times cannot be forgotten. Tactics requirements are also quickly met.

Cultural Game: You need a sustantial military to jump out with a big lead with Michelangelo/Bach or Shakespeare. Why not pick up 10 to 14 or more cultural points on the way as you build your military?

You can buy your time on which of these three methods of play to use, depending on what cards first become available to you: highly versatile!
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Daniel Corban
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Problems with Homer:
-Bonus only applies to warriors
-Bonus only applies to two units
-Resource discount is virtually meaningless, even this early in the game
-Ten culture is a drop in the bucket
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Ron Hoppe
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I have had several games now that have ended with only a few points between the leaders. Do not overlook a few extra culture because it seems a scant amount. I think the Homer strategy has some merit. Of course I will still take Moses or Aristotle first.
 
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Daniel Corban
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I speculate that if either one of the VP leaders you talk about had selected Homer, they would have had a lower final score.
 
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Tim Seitz
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Understanding how to make best use of Homer's bonuses is worthwhile in the event that your pet leaders are all relegated to the pile of unused cards or taken by opponents. Would you rather have no leader than have Homer?

I applaud the OP's critical thinking.
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Steve Bachman
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dcorban wrote:
I speculate that if either one of the VP leaders you talk about had selected Homer, they would have had a lower final score.

I guess I am just having difficulty understanding why you feel Homer is so weak that Hammurabi, Alexander, or no leader at all is a better choice. I've done quite well with Homer, but that may be a function of my groups playing style as much as anything. Still, he does not seem nearly as pathetic and weak as you always portray him.
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Greg Meyer
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Let's retread a common logical fallacy

Homer is better than nothing

nothing is better that an ice cold beer on a hot day

ERGO

Homer is better than an ice cold beer on a hot day
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Devin Smith
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Ward wrote:
dcorban wrote:
I speculate that if either one of the VP leaders you talk about had selected Homer, they would have had a lower final score.

I guess I am just having difficulty understanding why you feel Homer is so weak that Hammurabi, Alexander, or no leader at all is a better choice. I've done quite well with Homer, but that may be a function of my groups playing style as much as anything. Still, he does not seem nearly as pathetic and weak as you always portray him.


I'm a week late on this thread, but someone else revived it first. Hammurabi is generally felt to be the worst leader, gimping you millitarily in the early game, so I'll take homer instead.

On the Alex/Homer front I'm an agnostic, they're both not my first choice (or second, or third). You have to build a lot of warriors early to make homer pay off, which means you're drawing less millitary cards until you get a fancy government or warfare tech, which may be crippling.
 
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Tim Seitz
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Excalabur wrote:
Ward wrote:
dcorban wrote:
I speculate that if either one of the VP leaders you talk about had selected Homer, they would have had a lower final score.

I guess I am just having difficulty understanding why you feel Homer is so weak that Hammurabi, Alexander, or no leader at all is a better choice. I've done quite well with Homer, but that may be a function of my groups playing style as much as anything. Still, he does not seem nearly as pathetic and weak as you always portray him.


I'm a week late on this thread, but someone else revived it first. Hammurabi is generally felt to be the worst leader, gimping you millitarily in the early game, so I'll take homer instead.

On the Alex/Homer front I'm an agnostic, they're both not my first choice (or second, or third). You have to build a lot of warriors early to make homer pay off, which means you're drawing less millitary cards until you get a fancy government or warfare tech, which may be crippling.

You don't have to build a LOT of warriors to make Homer pay off. Don't forget his culture bonus. Just by building ONE warrior, you can rack up about 24 12 culture, which in a close game can be decisive. Normally, I'd say that generating early culture is a waste of resources, but in Homer's case it's his primary benefit.
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David desJardins
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out4blood wrote:
You don't have to build a LOT of warriors to make Homer pay off. Don't forget his culture bonus. Just by building ONE warrior, you can rack up about 24 culture, which in a close game can be decisive.


No way. How can you possibly spend 24 turns in Age I? That's ridiculous.
 
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Steve Bachman
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DaviddesJ wrote:
out4blood wrote:
You don't have to build a LOT of warriors to make Homer pay off. Don't forget his culture bonus. Just by building ONE warrior, you can rack up about 24 culture, which in a close game can be decisive.


No way. How can you possibly spend 24 turns in Age I? That's ridiculous.

Simple math: 24 CP = 2 CP/turn * 12 turns

12 turns is still a long Era I, but 24 turns wasn't stated or implied.
 
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Matthew M
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DaviddesJ wrote:
out4blood wrote:
You don't have to build a LOT of warriors to make Homer pay off. Don't forget his culture bonus. Just by building ONE warrior, you can rack up about 24 culture, which in a close game can be decisive.


No way. How can you possibly spend 24 turns in Age I? That's ridiculous.


You start with one Warrior.

-MMM
 
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Tim Seitz
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Ward wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
out4blood wrote:
You don't have to build a LOT of warriors to make Homer pay off. Don't forget his culture bonus. Just by building ONE warrior, you can rack up about 24 culture, which in a close game can be decisive.


No way. How can you possibly spend 24 turns in Age I? That's ridiculous.

Simple math: 24 CP = 2 CP/turn * 12 turns

12 turns is still a long Era I, but 24 turns wasn't stated or implied.

Oops. Bad math . Meant 12 culture (for 6 turns). It's up to 2 per turn. We do 6-7 turns in Age 1, not including turn 2 which always starts in Age A.
 
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Mc Jarvis
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I think the difficulty here is the assumption that there are different kinds of games. Ideally, every leader should be used in such a way as to get you some more flexibility. Moses makes food production less important so you can concentrate on military/science/mines, Caesar lets you focus more on food/mines/science production while your opponents spend extra resources to meet your military boost, Aristotle gives you bulbs so that you can research more technologies, which will boost science/food/mines.

Homer's culture bonus doesn't give you breathing room in another area of your civilization's development. What he does primarily do is give you culture equivalent to a small age-III military card.

His discount on troops should translate to 3 or 4 rock by the end of age I, more if you use this to aide in colonizing territories for a bit less. I would be inclined to get some sort of small pop-engine going(on top of a sizable army? tough to do with only homer) in hopes of grabbing a good territory.

Overall, I think I'd personally rank him at the bottom of the age A leaders, though I definitely wouldn't pass him up if I had no other options. (or could save a few early CA's by picking him over a marginally more powerful leader)
 
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Tim Seitz
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McJarvis wrote:
I think the difficulty here is the assumption that there are different kinds of games. Ideally, every leader should be used in such a way as to get you some more flexibility.

Oh, but I think that there are decidedly different games, primarily based on the cards that are discarded from Age A and the distribution of cards that flow down in Age I.

For example, if Alchemy shows up as the last 2 cards, then science is likely to be scarce the whole game. It's entirely possible that both players pass on the last two hoping to get early Scientific Method, which might also come out late.

That game will be very different from one where Alchemy comes out in the first few cards, possibly along with Leonardo, and most players start raking in the science, resulting in a tech race.
 
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Greg Meyer
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Is Homer worth taking for one CA when no Age A leader is the alternative?

I say he probably is, because you can build two warriors saving yourself two stone and generate some culture (10-12 is good ballpark number). Three total warriors may be all you want, and building more to use Homer's benefit may just get you in trouble.

I used to dislike Hammurabi, but the flexibility he brings is better than no leader at all, and I am beginning to like him more than Homer.

So, I feel an engineering genius is way better than Homer if you have a wonder. The culture Homer brings may also make you a target in a multiplayer game where everyone is aware of the score and will actually hamper leaders. If you end up with Homer in a two player game, you obvious relish a challenge or are playing your children.

Another pro Homer argument is you can seed a lot of colonies because you can replace warriors more cheaply. I think this argument fails as the value of colonies is so much higher than the one stone Homer saves, it is quite irrelevant.
 
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Mc Jarvis
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out4blood wrote:
McJarvis wrote:
I think the difficulty here is the assumption that there are different kinds of games. Ideally, every leader should be used in such a way as to get you some more flexibility.

Oh, but I think that there are decidedly different games, primarily based on the cards that are discarded from Age A and the distribution of cards that flow down in Age I.

For example, if Alchemy shows up as the last 2 cards, then science is likely to be scarce the whole game. It's entirely possible that both players pass on the last two hoping to get early Scientific Method, which might also come out late.

That game will be very different from one where Alchemy comes out in the first few cards, possibly along with Leonardo, and most players start raking in the science, resulting in a tech race.


These are differences in the reality of what shows up on the board: but they are not really different strategies. Either way the point is that science is important- the OP seemed to be stating that you could either specialize in culture, colonization, science or military. I would say that all four of these things should be goals for any given strategy, which may or may not be met in a timely fashion depending on the flop. (in fact- it seems to me that specializing in science leads to the other three...perhaps I'm just unfamiliar with the strategy language of this board?)


Edit- Just re-read the OP and my post, and I sense where the confusion came from. The OP said there are different kinds of games: (listed four strategies), so I was using the word "game" in my post as a synonym for strategy. I understand that the game will unfold very differently in a tactical sense depending on the card draw. (which could be said to be different "games", though I would still argue that strategy should remain the same)
 
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Mc Jarvis
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meyerg wrote:

I say he probably is, because you can build two warriors saving yourself two stone and generate some culture (10-12 is good ballpark number). Three total warriors may be all you want, and building more to use Homer's benefit may just get you in trouble.


I may have been playing him wrong- but I have used Homer to save me rock on building knights as well. Since you only get a culture bonus on 2 warriors, you might as well use the rock he generates for other useful military units. (I believe equal numbers of warriors and knights is very versatile for tactics purposes)

meyerg wrote:

I used to dislike Hammurabi, but the flexibility he brings is better than no leader at all, and I am beginning to like him more than Homer.


Strongly agree. Hammurabi is certainly no Ceasar or Moses, but he is underappreciated for sure.
 
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Ben Stanley
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I'm really late to this conversation, but I just got the game for Christmas, and would like to point out that Homer and Hammurabi are possibly the two best leaders in the Basic Game (where it ends fast enough that 10 extra culture is huge and you don't do much with your military actions anyway).
 
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Tim Seitz
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This may be why a lot of newbies think they are great leaders.
 
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Greg Meyer
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Quote:
and you don't do much with your military actions anyway


Only draw military cards and build military!

I have pointed out that Hammurabi can be useful if you get him cheap, but the big three dwarf him in ability.

Homer is better than a poke in the eye.

Now the new Homer Simpson leader that lets you generate one food per warrior up to two warriors because he always has the warriors bring in donuts is probably worth it.

Note, to alter the Homer card to make it the Homer Simpson card you just substitute food for culture on the card. He still generates the stone for military units as he has plenty of inert uranium from the nuclear power plant he works at!
 
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