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Subject: So, do the humans EVER win? rss

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Ralph T
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All the session reports and reviews describe games in which the humans lose. Do the humans ever win? How many games did you play before the humans win? What ratio of the time do they win?
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Aaron Greene
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I've played this game about 8-10 times and the humans have won half of those games. Its a very well balanced game. There have only been a couple runaway wins that I can think of, one for both groups. If the humans get lucky with the destination deck and can get a couple of 3's early, then the game just won't last long enough for the cylons to win.
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Nick Short
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When you first start playing, the humans have it really rough. However, once you get a few games done and you learn what fires need put out immediately and which can wait, or which crisis cards are truly bad (i.e. all of them without jump icons), or just how much you should cooperate; the game gets much easier for the humans. After a few more plays, you should stabilize at an even win/loss ratio. Just know it may take a few tries.
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Charles Simon
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In the first few games that you play, the Cylons have a large advantage. The game mechanics work against the human players, so a Cylon player could have absolutely no idea on what they are doing, but the game is still working against the humans. After a few players, the players start to get human strategies that work well, such as using Investigative Committees (which is, in my opinion, one of the most powerful cards a human player has at their disposal and I will go out of my way to go to Colonial One to try to pick up a few more of them if nothing else is going on).

At this point with our games (30+, with the same core group with others of varying experience filling in our 5th or 6th slot from time to time), we are close to a 50-50 ratio, with a slight edge towards the human players. Though that statistic would skew even further towards the humans if you discount our first 4 or 5 games of Cylon victories as we were learning how to play the game as humans.

However, to answer your question as far as the anecdotal evidence of session reports on the game: Yes, Cylon victory session reports far outweigh session reports of human victory. The reason because of this is that human victories are from keeping resources from dipping too low and stopping catastrophic disaster. Cylon victories, however, are a result of last minute sabotage, heavy subterfuge and pulling of catastrophic disasters.

Cylon victories make much better stories.
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Royce Hix
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In the multiple plays of this game, I've never seen the Humans lose. I've never been a Cylon either.

The last time we played, it was the closest I've seen, with us actually having some concern over our lowering Morale, but still were able to win fairly easily. It also didn't help that the sympathizer stayed Human.

Perhaps it's the skill level of our group, and that typically, dumb luck has it that our more inexperienced players typically end up as Cylons. It's still fun though - and someday, I'll be a Cylon and be able to have an unbiased view on this one.
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Fabio T.
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In the 7 or 8 games I've played so far the humans have won two times. One was a pretty close game with morale (or was it fuel?) down to 1, in the other one the Cylon had to watch the humans reach safety without much of a chance.
Whether the Cylon victories were close or not depended highly on the crisis cards we drew. In one extreme case (4 player game) we didn't even get one step towards our next jump after the sleeper agent phase before the whole population got wiped out by about 5 Cylon attacks in a row with the Cylon and his sympathizer shooting down all the civilian ships they could get.
So yes, it's based on luck a lot, but I think it's also about being "not too good" as humans in the first half of the game, at least in 4 and 6 player games where the sympathizer can be quite annoying as an extra opponent.
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Ralph T
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Thanks for the responses. I had thought the game was lopsided in favor of the cylons based on the one game I watched and the session reports.
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I used to think the win ratio for humans was about 10% to 20%. Now, I'd say it's about 50%. Indeed, things are greatly skewed when you have some people who are newbies. Some "real gamers", those who've played semi-coop games before, and/or good competitive awareness/edge in competitive games will do quite well their first time. E.g., one newbie to the game but not to boardgaming kept on top of all the bookkeeping, and when people were supposed to use their special powers.


Otherwise, sometimes you jsut get creamed by the die rolls and/or card draws. This is for both sides too. For example, it's REALLY frustrating for a cylon player to have 6 raiders attack a sector with one unmanned viper and 4 civilian ships, only to have everything intact with the humans using just one Evasive Manuever.

Also, getting the wrong super crisis card can make or break the game angry I had a 3 in 5 chance of getting the right one and it bombed miserably.
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JH
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It's been about even in the games I've played.
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Gustav Åkerfelt
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The games we've played, humans have it roughly 75-25. Once people got to "kicking the FTL", the humans game really got easier...
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'Bernard Wingrave'
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I have played twice. The Cylons won in a 6-player game, and the Humans won in a 4-player game. The latter featured very few Cylon ships, so it wasn't even close.
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Artie Heinrich
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Hi,

in our group we had the almost oppostite experience. Of the at least 10 times I have played so far the cylons only won 3 games.
In our group we have 2 very experienced players that are also generally great analytical minds, and as at least 1 of them is normally playing on the human side, the human strategy is always quite optimal. Also it is easier for the humans to learn and get better, because the cylons are mostly played by different people (often newbies), so it is harder for cylons to try out their strategies and find out what works and what not.
So we are finding that after more sessions the cylons start getting better and start to win games. Still the human strategies are much more developed in our group.

Regards,

Artie
 
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Ben Roberts
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We play this a lot and the Cylons used to win so often that we modified the starting set-up (+2 to all the dials). Now we see closer games. At least one dial is down to 1 by game end.

Anyone who thinks the Humans can win without this boon needs to come and play with the evil mutha's in my group
 
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Gerard Green
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Take a look at the Play-by-Post BSG games here on the geek:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Game 1: Cylons Win
Game 2: Humans Win
Game 3: Cylons Win
Game 4: Humans Win
Game 5: Still ongoing
Game 6: Cylons Win
Game 7: Humans Win
Game 8: Cylons Win
Games 9+: Still ongoing


A bit less than 50% for the humans so far, but they do win sometimes.

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Tom Thingamagummy
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We really need Sevenspirits and Alexfrog to document their blow out Human victories. Until then, I keep wondering if they're just bad cylons.
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Eric Clason
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DCAnderson wrote:
...
Also, most people are going to write session reports about their early games (when the Cylons usually win). The more games a player plays, the less likely he is to write a report.

I've noticed this is true of session reports for many games and wonder why. I prefer session reports from experienced players because they have fewer 'we played this rule wrong' and 'next time we'll have a better idea of what strategies/tactics are good' and the like.
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Spencer Beni
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Humans are (currently) 8 for 24 for me.

I track all my BSG games on this link:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/365487

I have no idea why I do that (I don't do it for any other game), but I have for BSG.
 
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Chris
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It's been exactly 50/50 for me. My 12 plays have had 6 cylon wins and 6 human wins.
 
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Matthew Sharp
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Our group also tends to have humans win more often than cylons. We have played around 7-8 games, and cylons have only won 2 of them. And one of then was when we decided to start all the dials 2 lower cause until that point the cylons hadn't won.

I can only get the impression that many groups don't play humans as a team so much. When the humans consult each other on the moves they make, it makes it much harder for an unrevealed cylon to make "suboptimal" moves and keep their cover.
 
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James Carlton
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I have a feeling the number of players puts a pretty big skew on the difficulty too.

Having 2 cylons with 5 players imo is a lot harder for the humans than have 1 cylon and a sympathiser with 4 players.

I've got 4 five player games under my belt and so far the humans have been destroyed every time. That's with several new human players each time however.
 
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Karl
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Played 2 games so far, one 3 player, one 4 player. Both did not see any cylons before the sleeper agent phase. Both were a win for the humans. However, both were close and might have ended differently. First game I was unlucky to become the cylon as Boomer and thus was brigged instantly. Second game our cylon was an inexperienced player that made us catch him after only one turn - again brigging the sole cylon immediately. By the time those Cylons got out of the Brig/got to the resurrection ship the game was always almost over.
 
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Cactus god
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Out of about 60 plays at this point, I'd say the Cylons tend to win a bit more than the humans. I think the advantage is just slightly higher than 50/50, maybe 53/47 for the cylons. I would say the extra 3% is from those games where you just happen to get slammed with ships and things, no jumps, etc. It happens once and awhile.

 
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Kris Van Beurden
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I find it hard to win as cylon against a human president who has drawn the entire quorum deck ... and not ExeOrdering the president in his office (which draws 4 Quorum cards for the President) is almost tantamount to getting brigged in our group (it *is* if you are one of the 3-leadership-drawing characters).

On this, our group also has a question - the rules state that once you've drawn the entire Quorum deck, you reshuffle the discard and make it the new deck. What's to stop a human president from continually cycling through Brutal Forces or Presidential Pardons (IIRC it is not a "remove from game" one) or failed Speeches/Rationings? With an empty quorum deck, the president will always redraw his last-played Quorum card (unless it is removed from the game). This made Centurion/Cylon Fleet strategies hopeless, because in our group a human president ALWAYS has Brutal Force ready.

Last game I played finally saw another Cylon victory again, but mostly thanks to the President's two arrest orders, my Cylon Reveal (another brig) and then the two of us using Human Fleet to strip Y/P cards from the humans and damaging locations. And in the end it still took three x2 basestars firing from the cylon fleet to destroy the galactica
 
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Charles Simon
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Quote:
I find it hard to win as cylon against a human president who has drawn the entire quorum deck ... and not ExeOrdering the president in his office (which draws 4 Quorum cards for the President) is almost tantamount to getting brigged in our group (it *is* if you are one of the 3-leadership-drawing characters).

On this, our group also has a question - the rules state that once you've drawn the entire Quorum deck, you reshuffle the discard and make it the new deck. What's to stop a human president from continually cycling through Brutal Forces or Presidential Pardons (IIRC it is not a "remove from game" one) or failed Speeches/Rationings? With an empty quorum deck, the president will always redraw his last-played Quorum card (unless it is removed from the game). This made Centurion/Cylon Fleet strategies hopeless, because in our group a human president ALWAYS has Brutal Force ready.

Last game I played finally saw another Cylon victory again, but mostly thanks to the President's two arrest orders, my Cylon Reveal (another brig) and then the two of us using Human Fleet to strip Y/P cards from the humans and damaging locations. And in the end it still took three x2 basestars firing from the cylon fleet to destroy the galactica



This is a very risky strategy in our group. An unrevealed Cylon with a good amount of, let alone the entire Quorum deck can be deadly. Because of this, any President who draws too many cards becomes suspicious. Even if the President is confirmed to be human, if it is before the Sleeper Phase, you never know if the President will become a Cylon and start the second phase with a full Quorum Deck. Plus, there are many ways that a Cylon player could steal the Presidency from Crisis Cards or other means (Martial Law) and gain control of the deck. For us, pulling that many cards is a risk. Plus, we've *never* throw that many Executive Orders at one player just to pick up Quorum Cards. You risk an Unrevealed Cylon President in the President's Office the chance to draw 2 Quorum cards AND play 2 Quorum cards. That lets the President play "Arrest Order" to Brig someone, followed by assigning themselves as Mission Specialist to pick the jump destination if it is near an FTL cycle or just "Encouraging Mutiny" to pull the Admiral Title to themselves.

Our Cylons can be deadly and are very good at subterfuge until the worst possible time to reveal. As such, we never find it good strategy to put so much power into the hands of one player. The only time we'll see the entire Quorum deck drawn for the most part, is after all Cylons in the game have revealed themselves. It is the only time you can trust the other players.


And to answer the question: Yes, the President can keep drawing up the Brutal Force cards after they are played. It means either the Cylon player needs to strike with a different strategy to remove resources (Crisis Card flooding) or the Cylons need to try to make more subtle strikes before revealing. The other thing that should be in the back of the minds of all players is that they may be a Cylon Sleeper. Knowing this fact means that they should be playing strong for the humans, but leaving a "back door" route to cause some damage just in case they are a Cylon Sleeper. For example, if I am playing Saul Tight, I will encourage the President to draw Quorum cards because I know that they can be mine with a simple declaration of Martial Law. If I am the Chief, I'll hoard Repair cards because it limits the ones other players will have and even when I discard for Revealing, all those Repair cards are in the discard pile and the rest of the deck needs to be depleted before they'll shuffle back in the mix, so I'll go for a damaging Galactica strategy.

Basically, our strategies come down to play strong for your team, but remember that you are playing to win and your team may change. And giving one player all of the Quorum cards is a giving one player a dangerous amount of power, just as having one person be the President/Admiral is giving one a dangerous amount of power and we don't trust one another very much, so we avoid it.
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Karrde
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I'm ALWAYS a cylon so no the humans haven't won yet devil (5 out of 5 games and with mixed chars).

Sooner or later I'm gonna get brigged at the start of a game just to save the humans time...
 
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