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Subject: 6= free re-roll? rss

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Mechajunkie One
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I have taken notice that some investigators have one skill with a rating of six but the game only comes with five dice. Is my thread title correctly assuming what one has to do in order to account for that sixth die? Or am I going to have to "borrow" a few dice from another game?

To see what prompted me to ask this question in the first place, read the example given on pg.16 of the core rulebook in regards to weapon and spell limits. I mean c'mon! Really? Thirteen dice?
 
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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You'll definitely need more dice, or need to reroll the 5 you get. Some skill checks might involve 10 or more dice.
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Erik Berry
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It's not really a re-roll. If you rolled 5 dice and got successes on all 5, you can still get a 6th success. You can either just keep track of how many successes you've gotten so far and then roll the dice again to represent more dice, or get dice from other games / just buy some more dice. Yes, 13+ dice on a single roll can definitely happen, especially when you start spending clues.

We bought some extra dice that we store with the game. Usually we give each person 10 or so dice to use, and that covers it pretty well.
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Tim Maloney
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ChakaDon wrote:

I mean c'mon! Really? Thirteen dice?


Yes, really, and quite often more than that.

You should go buy a box of 24-36 dice now to keep with the game and use the five original dice in another game. Each side of the table should have a fist full of dice so they don't have to keep being passed around.
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Christopher Scatliff
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I don't understand what's so hard about just rolling 5 dice, remembering your success count, then rolling them again.
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Erik Berry
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Smoo wrote:
I don't understand what's so hard about just rolling 5 dice, remembering your success count, then rolling them again.

Once you're playing with one or more expansion boards, people at the opposite end are always reaching for dice. It's certainly doable with just the 5 dice it came with; we just find it more convenient to give each person their own. And since we were buying dice anyway, we just got enough to let folks have extras.
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Bryan Maxwell
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Our local Meijer sells sets of 10 standard white six sided dice for like $2. I bought a couple of boxes and threw them in with AH.
 
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brian
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indiexxx wrote:
ChakaDon wrote:

I mean c'mon! Really? Thirteen dice?


Yes, really, and quite often more than that.

You should go buy a box of 24-36 dice now to keep with the game and use the five original dice in another game. Each side of the table should have a fist full of dice so they don't have to keep being passed around.

One of the first things I did was toss the dice that came with the game and buy 24 mini dice in a little more thematic colors. Fits great in my sotrage solution as well.

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Rauli Kettunen
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ChakaDon wrote:
To see what prompted me to ask this question in the first place, read the example given on pg.16 of the core rulebook in regards to weapon and spell limits. I mean c'mon! Really? Thirteen dice?


Best I've had was 17 dice pre-modification (which was -3 or -8, turn order depending) with Mihn Thi Phan (Fight 4) and Tom Murphy (Fight +2) and weapons, with 0 Clues. Marie Lambeau could get +18 from 3x Shrivelling, Fight 4 and Voice of Ra for total of 23 dice, not counting Allies and negative modifiers. It's not that impossible even with just base game, Michael McGlen Fight 6, Tommy Gun +6, Cultist/Maniac +1 to combat check.
 
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Freddie Foulds
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I have to agree with everybody that Arkham really needs more dice. I tossed mine and bought a set of 36 six siders, which is just about enough for a 3-4 person game. Arkham really is a dice heavy game.
 
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Brian Mc Cabe
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The odds are better the more dice you roll. If you roll ten dice, you should, understanding they're random rolls, get three successes, with a one in three chance of getting a fourth. Rolling five dice, you should get one each roll, with two chances at 55% to get an extra one each time.

But I can go 0-5 twice just as easily as I can go 0-10 once. I sure
wouldn't roll five and roll one by itself at 1/3.

Brian
 
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Fabio T.
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apatheticexecutioner wrote:
The odds are better the more dice you roll.


How so? The dice don't "know" how many others are rolled along with them, so why should there be any difference between rolling ten dice in one roll, throwing these same ten dice one at a time, or rolling one single die ten times and countung the successes?

apatheticexecutioner wrote:
If you roll ten dice, you should, understanding they're random rolls, get three successes, with a one in three chance of getting a fourth. Rolling five dice, you should get one each roll, with two chances at 55% to get an extra one each time.

But I can go 0-5 twice just as easily as I can go 0-10 once. I sure
wouldn't roll five and roll one by itself at 1/3.

Brian


If you add up the single chances for a success (which is 1/3 each), you will get the exact same probabilities...

Believe me, I've studied this kinda stuff. It's only some psychological trick being played on our minds.

By the way, of course it looks much cooler to throw a hand full of dice on the table than just these five (Yes, I've played WoW - The Board Game...)
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Freddie Foulds
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I think he's talking about the possibility of rolling a sucess rather than the odds of a 5 or 6 coming up. Obviously if you roll one die for a skill check you have a lower possibility of rolling a success compared to rolling 10 dice.

i.e. if you only roll one die then you've only got that die on which to get a success, whereas if you're rolling ten, then there are ten dice which might come up with a success.
 
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Tibs
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I actually had a discussion (argument) with my boss about spending clues and rolling dice. He preferred to spend three clues at once and roll three dice; I said spending them one at a time and rolling them one at a time is better.

I proved that the odds of getting any given number of successes are the same both ways, but using my method it's possible to save clues in case you get your successes first.

He wasn't having any of it
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Brian Mc Cabe
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Fabio:

Here's the way it was explained to me:

When rolling two d6, as opposed to one, multiply your chances of failing times itself. In this case,it's 2/3. 2/3 x 2/3 is a 4/9 chance of failure, which conversely gives you a 5/9, or appoximately 56%, chance to get one five or one six on two dice, considerably better than 33% with one die.

Where you're going wrong is you are supposing that if you add more dice, you are also going to need more successes. The more dice I roll, the better chance I have of rolling a single success.

Of course, yesterday, I rolled four ones, three twos, two threes and a four on ten dice and Zoey wound up in the hospital, but I'm just talking about odds, not the sentient nature of AH.

Brian
 
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brian
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Where you are going wrong is you are calculating the probability of looking for a single success with multiple dice. Yes, your chances of hitting a single success with more dice goes up considerably as you add those dice.

What you need to take into account is that you are not required to roll any set amount of dice. so the odds of finding that one success is exactly the same if you roll 1 die twice or two dice once.

But this is all just theoretically. You can roll 6 dice and theoretically have two successes. But it is just as probable that you your roll all failures - like you pointed out in your example. Conversely, a single roll may grant you that success you are looking for.

So that is why it is better to spend a Clue at a time to see if you beat the odds and pick up that success early. Then you save your Clues for a later battle.

But then again, the sentient nature of this game devours all forms of logic anyway.
 
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Brian Mc Cabe
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Chris:

I used to spend multiple clues, too. I re-read the rules as saying that you can spend clues "one at a time" for a reroll, so I stopped doing it.

To further the discussion, if the odds are the same, then why is Joe's special ability a game breaker? Spend a clue and get an extra die.
Why do the skill cards give an extra die when spending clues?

The only answer can be that your odds of success are greater.

I agree about saving clues, but not about the odds.

YMMV. You roll a hundred dice one at a time. I'll take my chances on rolling them all at once. :-)

Brian
 
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Erik Berry
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Your odds of success are greater with an extra die because you get an additional chance to get a success. The chance of getting a success on that one die you just got from a clue is still the same as the chance on each original die you had to roll though, which is 1/3 assuming you're not blessed.

I think folks are starting to talk about different things at this point and getting confused though. Your chance of succeeding at a check (which may require multiple successes to succeed) increases with the number of dice that you get to roll. Your chance of rolling a success on any individual die, no matter how many you get to roll, will always be 1/3 though (unless you're blessed or cursed). So, no matter whether you roll 6 dice or 5 dice, track your successes, and roll one of them again to count as a 6th die, your chance of getting a success on any individual die will always be 1/3. Moreover, the probability of succeeding on your skill check is unchanged no matter which way you roll it because of that base probability per die.
 
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Brian Mc Cabe
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Brian
You've used the right word with "theoretically".

I've been using the word odds. Yes, theoretically, I will roll two successes on six dice. With five I've got one "sure thing," with a one in three chance of getting the second success when I roll the sixth die separately.

But odds and theory only work over a long haul. If they didn't, dice games would be unplayable. In Arkham Horror, for instance, you'd only succeed on one-third of your checks, unless you had an investigator or two blessed.

Even with my horrendous rolling, I do better than that.

And we are exactly point on in our observations about the sentient nature dispelling any logical explanation for what goes on in the game.

Brian

 
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
indiexxx wrote:
ChakaDon wrote:

I mean c'mon! Really? Thirteen dice?


Yes, really, and quite often more than that.

You should go buy a box of 24-36 dice now to keep with the game and use the five original dice in another game. Each side of the table should have a fist full of dice so they don't have to keep being passed around.

One of the first things I did was toss the dice that came with the game and buy 24 mini dice in a little more thematic colors. Fits great in my sotrage solution as well.



Are you playing with Farkle dice?
 
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brian
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Fred West III wrote:
Are you playing with Farkle dice?

No. Not even sure what Farkle dice are.

This is Chessex 12 mm dice in the Recon color scheme. Got mine at dicepool.com:

http://dicepool.com/speckled-dice/recona-/recona-36-speckled...

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Tim Gilberg
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apatheticexecutioner wrote:
Brian
You've used the right word with "theoretically".

I've been using the word odds. Yes, theoretically, I will roll two successes on six dice. With five I've got one "sure thing," with a one in three chance of getting the second success when I roll the sixth die separately.

But odds and theory only work over a long haul. If they didn't, dice games would be unplayable. In Arkham Horror, for instance, you'd only succeed on one-third of your checks, unless you had an investigator or two blessed.

Even with my horrendous rolling, I do better than that.

And we are exactly point on in our observations about the sentient nature dispelling any logical explanation for what goes on in the game.


You really don't understand what you are talking about.
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Freddie Foulds
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kungfro wrote:
I actually had a discussion (argument) with my boss about spending clues and rolling dice. He preferred to spend three clues at once and roll three dice; I said spending them one at a time and rolling them one at a time is better.

I proved that the odds of getting any given number of successes are the same both ways, but using my method it's possible to save clues in case you get your successes first.

He wasn't having any of it


As you say, this is obviously a better method! If you rolled the success you needed off the first clue, then the others are going to waste! Our group only spends clue tokens one at a time.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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xTHAWx wrote:
kungfro wrote:
I actually had a discussion (argument) with my boss about spending clues and rolling dice. He preferred to spend three clues at once and roll three dice; I said spending them one at a time and rolling them one at a time is better.

I proved that the odds of getting any given number of successes are the same both ways, but using my method it's possible to save clues in case you get your successes first.

He wasn't having any of it


As you say, this is obviously a better method! If you rolled the success you needed off the first clue, then the others are going to waste! Our group only spends clue tokens one at a time.


I know they are the same, but really I'm with your boss on this one. Ithaqua is my worst case scenario, since I have to roll for each item separately. Failing 10 of 11 Blessed dice with the one roll at a time method! No way I would've failed 10 of 11 if I'd rolled the 5 dice 2 times and then a single die . You can't convince me I would !
 
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Freddie Foulds
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Dam the Man wrote:

I know they are the same, but really I'm with your boss on this one. Ithaqua is my worst case scenario, since I have to roll for each item separately. Failing 10 of 11 Blessed dice with the one roll at a time method! No way I would've failed 10 of 11 if I'd rolled the 5 dice 2 times and then a single die . You can't convince me I would !


I know what you mean, but I always think, in situations like that, it's best to roll for each individually. That way you can't just roll all of them and then assign the fails to the items that you don't really want...

Plus it's more evil when your shotgun breaks...devil
 
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