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Subject: 8 Cards and Some Playtesting rss

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Mason Louie
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With all the cool card ideas, I gotta throw my hat in the ring. Here are some cards of others I've tweaked a bit, some of my own, and some notes I've made designing and play testing them.



Some of my own card ideas

Black Chapel
Action - Attack
cost 3

Each player trashes a card from their hand.


Coveted Lawn
Action
cost 2

Each player passes the top card of their deck to the player on their left and discards it.


Pretender
Action
cost 4

Gain any action card except Pretender from the supply, play it and then trash it.


Unemployed
Action
cost 3

Draw a card.
Discard any number of cards.
+1 action for each discarded card.


Copper Mine
Action
cost 4

+1 action
Each Copper produces an additional coin this turn.
Trash Copper Mine.


Homestead
Action
cost 5

+2 coin
If 5 or more actions are played, gain a Duchy and trash this card.


Midas
Action - Curse
cost 6

Each player trashes all victory cards in hand.
Gain a Gold for each trashed card.
------------------------------
-1 VP for each Gold in deck.


Magic Mirror
Action - Reaction
cost 3

+1 card
+2 coin
----------------------------------
When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this card to inflict the attack upon your attacker.




Red Pig's (AKA PorcoRosso, AKA drunkenKOALA) Cards
with some of cheepicus' and theatog's suggestions.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/426987
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/425528

Robin Hood
Action - Attack
cost 5
+1 card
+2 coins

Each other player trashes the top card of their deck.
Each other player gains X Coppers where X is the cost of the trashed card.


Siren
Action
cost 4
+1 card
+4 coins
+1 buy

Trash this card. Gain a Curse.


Circus
Victory
cost 6

Worth 1 VP for every unique kingdom card in your deck.


Mendicant
Action - Attack
cost 0

Each other player gives you 1 card from their hand. Put this card in your hand. Each other player draws a card.


Bell Tower
Action
cost 2

+1 action
+1 buy

Gain a Bell Tower.


Boomerang
Action
cost 2

The player to your left gains this card and a Curse.


Cartographer
Action - Victory
Cost: 5

Trash up to 3 Victory cards from your hand.
+2 coin per card trashed this way.
--------------------------------
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the Trash Pile.


Mr. Hyde
Treasure - Curse
cost 4

Gain a Mr. Hyde.
If you do, +4 coins.
--------------------------------
-3 VP


Gold Rush
Treasure
cost 3

+1 coin for every Gold Rush remaining in the Supply.


Princess, Lady, Peasant Girl (aka Ze Wimin)
Victory
cost 11, 5, 0

1 VP for every [Wimin] remaining in the Supply.





theatog's card ideas

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/427097
Wedding
Action
cost 3

Each other player discards a treasure card.
Gain X coins where X is the treasure value of the discarded cards.


http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/427099
Keep
Action
cost 3

If this card is your first played action, +5 coin.
Otherwise, +2 coin.




Design Notes

Red Pig has some very creative ideas.

I like many of cheepicus' suggestions because they tend to round out the original cards which blend better with the normal cards. A good example of this is the post draw from Mendicant; it's like saving grace.

Robin Hood felt too complicate, so I simplified.

I like Mr. Hyde a lot because he adds an extra dimension, thus inflection point, like Gardens to the game. But in order to increase his decisive texture (and thus more inflection surface), he needs to have a smaller cost. Hence, 4 instead of 6.

Cheepicus had some good insight about Siren, but without the +1 action/+1 card, it felt way underpowered for the curse it deals. A one-shot Festival + curse? So I left the +1 card and it feels better.

Like others on this board, I'm a big fan of Throne Room. Pretender is my riff on TR, the ultimate one-shot. Originally I had it without the Pretender exception and the first person to play it would deplete the Pretender pile and then do stuff. Not very fun, especially for everyone else.

I think ppl go for one-shots if they get something rare and exciting out of it. It may be optimally correct to play the one-shot for a limited net gain, but it sure ain't fun. I feel part of the greatness of this game is how "treasure" is not really money rather it's income, which speaks to the strong converse of one-shots.

Midas I feel needs to be an action rather than an attack because his power is basically uncontrollable hence he's also a curse.

Cartographer. I originally tried Graveyard because it had an novel gameplay direction. But with its powers alone, it isn't enough to warrant buying (no one in my play group ever bought one. If you're Chapelling, you go after the spicy meatball, not the cold fish). Cartographer seems to address this crucial problem nicely.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Donald had a Magic Mirror up his sleeve; it's so obvious.

Making and playing a bunch of cards really inspires more cards. One good mechanic deserves another.

Copper Mine seeks to address a hole in Coppersmith which bars having ripping Copper decks.



Play Testing Notes

I played about 20 games with the above cards with the 52 existing kingdom cards. Totally inadequate for really seeing what they can do, but a lot of fun.

From playing these new cards, I'm of the opinion Donald tends to make his cards more powerful rather than less (unlike Magic) because if there are a lot of weak cards, there'd be too many times when you have a lame random 10.

Mr. Hyde is very much a deal-with-the-devil-type card as you don't get a choice on gaining another Mr. Hyde. He plays like a Baron, but more evil. Evil!

Unemployment can be a very good card, assuming it's got some assistance, say Libraries. Ah social commentary...

Midas makes end games a real teeth clencher.

Robin Hood, a fate worse than Saboteur. Actually not really since he cancels himself out by spreading a successively wider Copper shield. Add a Coppersmith and it's party time.

Ze Wimin cards are pretty cool and have a fair bit of depth to them. More than I was able to uncover for my plays of these cards so far. Peasant Girls make good defense again Robin Hood, especially with Secret Chamber. More social commentary? ;-)

Weddings usually ends up being pretty weak sauce. Obviously better in multi player games, but still pretty low key. "Here, have a Copper". Weddings and a lonely Mr. Hyde is pretty mean, though.

Covetous Lawn is pretty random usually, but it gives a lot of life to peek type cards like Spy and Courtyard.

Circuses ain't as scary as they look from a point/balance POV. The reason: they're obviously good. So obvious ppl naturally buy them up and hence balance unlike Gardens, at least for new players. What's cool about them is that they strongly encourage ppl to widen their buying. Thus they tend to get and play more of the cards in a set. Games feel pretty different than Chapel laser rushes and Garden face fillers. These might actually be even better if they cost 5 or even 4, so that they are more likely to get evenly distributed amongst players.

Bell Tower. It might as well have been named Gardener. But I like the logical poetry of the card.

Gold Rushes feel like a new twist to the Duchy/Silver rush. Except it's now Provinces and Gold Rushes. However, it introduces a lot of inflections: Gold vs Provinces vs more Gold Rushes vs more +1 buys.

I'm not sure when I'd really want to buy a Boomerang, but they are kinda fun to have floating around. Maybe there ought to be more random action gaining cards like Circus for neat, but usually useless cards like this one.

Cartographers and Barons are interesting friends. More ammo for the Estate deck.

Adventurer is a lot more fun when there are fun treasure cards available. He's decent as is, but he can get cooking with Mr. Hyde and company.

Pretender and Unemployed are A-Team cards-- if you need them, they are there. Pretenders and Saboteurs gets pretty bloody. Pretender is very good at utilizing niche terminal action powers like Secret Chamber.
 
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Carsten ◄► Wesel
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masonlouie wrote:

Black Chapel
Action - Attack
cost 3
Each player trashes a card from their hand.
And if I have a curse in my hand, it's a White Chapel for me

Quote:
Coveted Lawn
Action
cost 2
Each player passes the top card of their deck to the player on their left and discards it.
Who decides, which card of my deck is the top card? Maybe you think, it's the thief and I think, it's the which?

Quote:
Pretender
Action
cost 4
Gain any action card except Pretender from the supply, play it and then trash it.
Can I trash a card twice, if the action on the card said, to trash the card and after that, the pretender said the same? Or can't I choose a card like this?


Quote:
Magic Mirror
Action - Reaction
cost 3
+1 card
+2 coin
----------------------------------
When another player plays an attack card, you may reveal this card to inflict the attack upon your attacker.
If only one reveal a magic mirror, it's ok, but if 2 or more players do, does it mean the bad action goes back many times to the attaker?
 
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Byron Leung
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At work right now. But from a glance, I am guessing Pretender might be under cost by quite a bit.

You pay 4 gold and you can use it like Adventurer or Library as you see fit? Not even a 6 gold card gives you such versatility. On top of that, it even gives you the power to shorten the game. Please revise the cost?


I had a similar card in design that looks like this:

Name: Carriage
Cost: 5
Type: Action
+2 coin
You may immediately buy an action card and play it. (This neither counts towards your Action or Buy limit this turn.)




This translate roughly to
+1 Action
+2 Coin
+1 Buy
(Versatility)

Compare to Festival
+2 Actions
+2 Coin
+1 Buy

Carriage is still on the verge of being too strong. Still thinking of a way to tweak it.
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Mason Louie
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Ceryon wrote:
And if I have a curse in my hand, it's a White Chapel for me

Sure. But what if you're playing a 3 player game? 4?

Ceryon wrote:
Who decides, which card of my deck is the top card? Maybe you think, it's the thief and I think, it's the which?

There's only one card that the top of your (undrawn) deck or else none if you only have 5 cards due to major Chapelling. Maybe you were thinking "hand"?

Ceryon wrote:
Can I trash a card twice, if the action on the card said, to trash the card and after that, the pretender said the same? Or can't I choose a card like this?

The same thing that happens with a Feast and a Throne Room. Play it, trash it, trash it again, still in the trash.

Ceryon wrote:
If only one reveal a magic mirror, it's ok, but if 2 or more players do, does it mean the bad action goes back many times to the attaker?

It happens many times. It makes would-be attackers very wary of their actions. And there's no reacting to the reaction either for simplicity's sake.



theatog wrote:
Pretender might be under cost by quite a bit.

You pay 4 gold and you can use it like Adventurer or Library as you see fit? Not even a 6 gold card gives you such versatility. On top of that, it even gives you the power to shorten the game. Please revise the cost?

I see what you're saying, but from play testing it works fine with 4. Namely, it is the right card and the right time... until the all right cards disappear. What often happens because of this effect is that a game will start in one direction, say Pretending Villages and Barons, exhaust those piles and then drastically change directions because their decks don't adequately support midgame/endgame due to the temporary opening Pretender grab and then the second tier cards get some action. I've played several end games so far where I'd just skip a late Pretender because it just wasn't what I needed. It loses power over time; sometimes very quickly if you combine it with Throne Room. :-)

If Pretender costs too much, then it ends up being a game ending card rather than a game enabling card which is how I wish it to be. I should point out that one of the distinct, great parts of this game is how others can use the same cards too, which balances out amazing cards like Circuses and makes small looking cards like Black Chapel into killers. Pretender relies on this distinction too and results in very dynamic games like Throne Room, but gets started faster because it takes less deck setup.
 
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Byron Leung
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Throne Room is great and costs 4 because it has a serious drawback. If you draw it alone, it does nothing. Countless times I have tried that with decent amount of actions in my deck. It is a dead action by itself.

Pretender have no drawback. There is no reason to not buy Pretender at any point of the game before it runs out and while you have 4 coins.

How others can use the same cards too does not justify an undercost card. The cost has to be correspond to its usefulness to be balanced. What you are saying is "Market, Festival and Lab are all buyable by every players; why don't we make them all cost (2)"?

Look at it this way:
If you have 4 coins and Throne Room and Pretender is available, why would you choose Throne Room over Pretender?
There are no reasons to buy any cards over Pretender at cost 4. Heck, I fail to see reasons to buy any cards at cost 5 over Pretender.

And i dont exactly understand the part "It loses power over time". It can be ANY card, can't it? This is only true if none of the cards available are good in late game. And most usuaully, I imagine, by the time this card is losing power, the game is near the end.


and finally...
"but gets started faster because it takes less deck setup. "
Aren't you ruining the game by introducing "less deck setup"? The game is all about deck setup. Having a card that is equivalent to every action available across the board at cost 4 is a really bad idea. All your deck needs is 3-4 Pretender depending how many players you are playing with. Only when pretender is sold out would you even consider other actions to buy. How is that valid design?
 
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Mason Louie
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theatog wrote:
Pretender have no drawback. There is no reason to not buy Pretender at any point of the game before it runs out and while you have 4 coins.

Pretender has 2 serious drawbacks: it relies on the availability of cards in the supply and it's only as strong as the optimum available action. Figuring out the optimum action is Intriguing.

theatog wrote:
How others can use the same cards too does not justify an undercost card. The cost has to be correspond to its usefulness to be balanced. What you are saying is "Market, Festival and Lab are all buyable by every players; why don't we make them all cost (2)"?

Raising Pretender's cost is not a drawback. It only delays its effects on the game. Plus costs don't always correspond to the usefulness of the card. Some examples: Moat, Gardens, Chapel, Cellar, Trading Post, Adventurer. How would a Chapel player play any differently if it cost 6? 8?

theatog wrote:
Look at it this way:
If you have 4 coins and Throne Room and Pretender is available, why would you choose Throne Room over Pretender?

There are no reasons to buy any cards over Pretender at cost 4. Heck, I fail to see reasons to buy any cards at cost 5 over Pretender.

Because if you don't buy the TR soon, they'll soon be gone, Pretended away. Whether you buy anything else over Pretender is pure opportunity cost. Do I want to surely gain X or have the potential to do anything at the risk of losing that ability at an uncertain time in the future.

Fake vs real. Like you, some will claim fake will always win because it's faster. Some will claim real will always win because it's reliable. This card allows exploration the space between those two directions in Dominion. My take is to have fun places to explore.

theatog wrote:
And i dont exactly understand the part "It loses power over time". It can be ANY card, can't it? This is only true if none of the cards available are good in late game. And most usuaully, I imagine, by the time this card is losing power, the game is near the end.

Since you don't understand, I would like to suggest you try playing with it.

theatog wrote:
Aren't you ruining the game by introducing "less deck setup"? The game is all about deck setup. Having a card that is equivalent to every action available across the board at cost 4 is a really bad idea. All your deck needs is 3-4 Pretender depending how many players you are playing with. Only when pretender is sold out would you even consider other actions to buy. How is that valid design?

Pretender doesn't ruin the game for the same reason action X does not ruin the game: all individual actions are designed not to singlehandedly (or even double handedly) ruin the game. Or do you consider getting a good action hand ruinous to the game?

Deck setup certainly describes most of playing basic Dominion, but with Intrigue, hand plays are much more crucial. Pretender pushes this direction almost to the max. However you will still lose to a pure money deck for the same reason why so many beginners lose to it, you need better deck setup than shiny actions alone. Pretender doesn't obviate deck setup, it just requires different, very different, deck setup.

3 or 4 Pretender by themselves does not make a killer deck. 3 or 4 Pretenders in one hand might be, but you'd have to buy more than what's available to have that happen.
 
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Tony Chen
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I like the Black Chapel, even though it can be very situational. But that can be a good thing, as it requires players to be aware of the timing of when to start using it.

Midas, can be too powerful if you trash a Province late game.

The cost of Mr Hyde isn't too important, as players are likely to buy only one, and gain the rest through the card itself.

Quote:
Cheepicus had some good insight about Siren, but without the +1 action/+1 card, it felt way underpowered for the curse it deals. A one-shot Festival + curse? So I left the +1 card and it feels better.

Nah, I disagree. Explanation in my original thread.

Pretender seems interesting.

Cartographer was really hard to balance. I have yet to playtest it.

I apologize to the women. I admit my Women cards are a bit sexist.

We playtested the Circus. Right now we feel like pricing it at 7. It's not as good as it sounds, because you don't want to buy useless cards early. And late game, if you are buying new cards just to buff up your 3 Circus cards, that's what, 3 points per card? A Duchy is also 3 points per card.

Quote:
Bell Tower. It might as well have been named Gardener. But I like the logical poetry of the card.

Exactly. Very situational. Of the 5 cards we playtested, this seems the least useful/interesting.

Quote:
I'm not sure when I'd really want to buy a Boomerang, but they are kinda fun to have floating around.

Why not? Everyone gets a Curse, including you, but other players get it earlier. I think that can be a significant advantage.



 
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Byron Leung
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The game ends when 3 piles run out. That means Pretender can at most see 2 piles running out before game ends. How is that any kind of valid drawback when it still has 5-7 other actions to pretend. (5 if both Duke and Garden are in play)

Again, maybe Pretender is not optimal when the 2 very best cards are gone. But it doesn't deny the fact that it is still very usable with 7 other remaining actions. That is not called a drawback of the card. It is simply a overpowered card losing minor power. Throne Room is a possible dead card: whether is can be the only action in your 5 card starting hand, or you draw it with Lab or Village and no other actions are in hand. A dead card means you play 1 less card in your hand as oppose to your opponents having 5 cards in their hand. A potential dead card in your deck also means you get to your other better cards, such as Gold, slower (in each run of your complete deck).

That's the part where I don't understand: you were stating something that is not drawback a drawback.

I dont understand your examples either. They are all good cards which their power corresponse to their cost.
Moat: Reaction aside, you can compare it to Pawn. it lacks the versatility of Pawn but you get to focus on drawing.
Chapel is almost a good example to this. But consider this, you at most have 10 cards to Chapel away. After they are gone, Chapel is a dead card. Also when you Chapel, you sometimes lose your buy that turn as a side effect.
Adventurer nets you 2 to 6 coins potential. While higher coins is rarer, it is never a dead card and it's reasonable to cost 6.
All the cards you mentioned are all cost-power balanced corresponding to cards that are in game all the time: Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province.
And yours is obviously not.

And sorry about my wording. By ruining the game, i dont mean the game is not playable when X action is in game. But rather it is going against the Game's design philosophy.
Imagine you are playing settler and they publish a Port with 1:1 trading ratio.
Or, imagine you are playing Puerto Rico and you can buy a building where you can, with no restrictions, ship all your goods in any color at 1vp each.
If I have to further explain my example, just in case:
Settler is a game of resource management and trading. Having a port that trades you 1:1 is backward philosophy of the game.
Puerto Rico, you get VP by shipping different goods. They have 3 ships and 5 colors of goods for a reason and you have to struggle with other players to get your goods on board. Being able to put all your goods regardless of color on 1 imaginary ship is backward philosophy.

Now, Deck building is the philosophy of Dominion. Can you explain again, how a card you can buy without even thinking strategy while solving all your problems with deck building not a backward philosophy?
 
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Craig Waterman
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I took your list and revised it, it is here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/428390


That being said major changes. The pretender I think is an interesting idea, but way overpowered in this form. I took away the using other cards, and instead make it more a one shot- versatile Feast card basically.

Midas, I think is interesting if it is more like a deal with the devil with your self, so now it gives you gold, but is worth negative VP for each gold.

Other changes too, what do you think?

 
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Craig Waterman
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theatog wrote:
The game ends when 3 piles run out. That means Pretender can at most see 2 piles running out before game ends. How is that any kind of valid draw back when it still has 5-7 other actions to pretend. (5 if both Duke and Garden is in play)

Again, maybe Pretender is not optimal when the 2 very best cards are gone. But it doesn't deny the fact that it is still very usable with 7 other remaining actions. That is not called a drawback of the card. It is simply a overpowered card returning to a lower power. Throne is a possible dead card: whether is can be the only action in your 5 card starting hand, or you draw it with Lab or Village and no other actions are in hand.

That's the part where I don't understand. You are stating something that is not drawback a drawback.

I dont understand your examples either. They are all good cards which corresponse to their cost.
Moat: Reaction aside, you can compare it to Pawn. it lacks the versatility of Pawn but you get to focus on drawing.
Chapel is almost a good example to this. But consider this, you at most have 10 cards to Chapel away. After they are gone, Chapel is a dead card. Also when you Chapel, you sometimes lose your buy that turn as a side effect.
Adventurer nets you 2 to 6 coins potential. While higher coins is rarer, it is never a dead card and it's reasonable to cost 6.
All the cards you mentioned are all cost-power corresponse to cards that are in game all the time: Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province.
And yours is obviously not.

And sorry about my wording. But ruining the game, i dont mean the game is not playable when X action is in game. But rather it is going against the Game's design philosophy.
Imagine you are playing settler and they publish a Port with 1:1 trading ratio.
Or, imagine you are playing Puerto Rico and you can buy a building where you can, with no restriction, ship all your goods in any color at 1vp each.
If I have to further explain my example, just in case:
Settler is a game of resource management and trading. Having a port that trades you 1:1 is backward philosophy of the game.
Puerto Rico, you get VP by shipping different goods. They have 3 ships for a reason and you have to struggle with other players to get your goods on board. Being able to put all your goods regardless of color on 1 imaginary ship is backward philosophy.

Now, Deck building is the philosophy of Dominion. Can you explain again, how a card you can buy without even thinking strategy while solving all your problems with deck building not a backward philosophy?


I agree with this line of thinking.
 
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Craig Waterman
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theatog wrote:
At work right now. But from a glance, I am guessing Pretender might be under cost by quite a bit.

You pay 4 gold and you can use it like Adventurer or Library as you see fit? Not even a 6 gold card gives you such versatility. On top of that, it even gives you the power to shorten the game. Please revise the cost?


I had a similar card in design that looks like this:

Name: Carriage
Cost: 5
Type: Action
+2 coin
You may immediately buy an action card and play it. (This neither counts towards your Action or Buy limit this turn.)




This translate roughly to
+1 Action
+2 Coin
+1 Buy
(Versatility)

Compare to Festival
+2 Actions
+2 Coin
+1 Buy

Carriage is still on the verge of being too strong. Still thinking of a way to tweak it.


I would feel better if it was just +1 coin. Because the instant nature of it is quite powerful, and it is the perfect card in that moment ( presumably) in a combo.
 
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Byron Leung
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Yea. Make it 1 coin please, if you are re-posting the card. Thanks.
I think the versatility makes up more than just 1 action. 1 action + 1 coin sounds more logical.
 
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Mason Louie
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drunkenKOALA wrote:
Midas, can be too powerful if you trash a Province late game.

Actually that's the point of Midas. He's powerful but defendable. How do you defend against him? By padding your deck with non-victory cards. It purposefully gives shoe-string deck builders something to sweat. I dreamed this card up playing against my coworker where it pretty much comes down to a hasty crap shoot to who can get the last 8 coin. Our races are pretty cookie cutter: some deck setup, then power dive into green card city. Midas makes the end game approach more diffuse and interesting. "You gonna stretch for that last Province? If you aim for the king, you best not miss!"

drunkenKOALA wrote:
The cost of Mr Hyde isn't too important, as players are likely to buy only one, and gain the rest through the card itself.

An early Mr. Hyde is a truly frightening thing to behold. First, the buyer starts buying Provinces like crazy until his deck hits the dead card saturation limit. Then the Mr. Hydes start piling up mercilessly until the 8 treasure density is reached. But by then, the Mr. Hyde pile is visibly smaller. IIRC one player finished a game with 6 Provinces and 1 point. Scared the hell out of me because of the pace he was buying Provinces at though.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
Cartographer was really hard to balance. I have yet to playtest it.

Cartographer isn't a game changer like Pretender and Circus, but he does play well with others.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
We playtested the Circus. Right now we feel like pricing it at 7. It's not as good as it sounds, because you don't want to buy useless cards early. And late game, if you are buying new cards just to buff up your 3 Circus cards, that's what, 3 points per card? A Duchy is also 3 points per card.

I think gaining 3 points a card is fair if you need to have bought 3 other expensive, high demand cards like Circus. The odd Duke game I've played works this way more or less. That said, I like this card because it forces players to think beyond "oh! gimme! gimme!" Or maybe what I like is that simplistic "gimme!" will cause you to lose with this card in spite of how good it is.

Ze Wimin feel like they have game changing power, but it's very hidden, subtle. I haven't found it yet, but I sense it.

drunkenKOALA wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure when I'd really want to buy a Boomerang, but they are kinda fun to have floating around.

Why not? Everyone gets a Curse, including you, but other players get it earlier. I think that can be a significant advantage.

I agree that getting a head start on a Boomerang cycle is an advantage and maybe even a significant one if skillfully done, but my uncertainty about buying it comes down to opportunity cost: there's almost always something better/more important to buy. A different coworker once asked me, "Is Conspirators any good?" She was remarking that it looked like a good card, which it is. I answered her question with a question, "Why don't you buy one instead of Tribute?" and she gained some insight into the matter. (An aside: I love Conspirators --see the half-baked Homestead-- but have only managed to use the card to good effect twice because there's usually something more pressing to be done unless I have a brake card like Midas or have an extra gain through an Ironworks or similar.)



As for theatog, I'm done trying to convince you about Pretender. If I can't change your mind with my first hand experiences, all the words on the Internet won't help me and so think what you like to think.
 
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