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Subject: Is the Cave Troll exempt from the room limit? rss

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Mike
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This came up in a game we played the other night.

When unleashing the Cave Troll does it have to follow the 5 person per room limit? I would imagine that it would, but I couldn't find a specific instance in the rules that verified it.

To be honest I could see it being legal to use in a full room since its such a powerful monster, but it would be nice to get a clear ruling about this.

Thanks in advance.

~ Bones
 
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Gláucio Reis
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The rules state that the cave troll may be played in any room, including rooms with knights. Although they do not specifically address the room limit for the cave troll, they do it for the wraith, saying it can enter a room with five figures, as long as it pushes one hero away. As the cave troll also "pushes" (and kills) other figures when it enters a room, and it even breaks the knight's rule, it is just logical to assume that it can enter a room with five figures.
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Mike
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Yeah, the "Any" part of the rule is what was making us question everything. Thanks for clearing that one up. I appreciate it.

~ Bones
 
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Mike Fuller
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GSReis wrote:
The rules state that the cave troll may be played in any room, including rooms with knights. Although they do not specifically address the room limit for the cave troll, they do it for the wraith, saying it can enter a room with five figures, as long as it pushes one hero away. As the cave troll also "pushes" (and kills) other figures when it enters a room, and it even breaks the knight's rule, it is just logical to assume that it can enter a room with five figures.

Actually, despite your logic it is verified in the 3.Room: explanation on page 2 of the rule book.
Fantasy Flight Silver Line 2nd Edition: wrote:
3. Room: Rooms are the most numerous areas on the game board. Each room contains a gold value. There may never be more than five hero and/or monster figures in a room (with the exception of the berserker, see page 6). A room is not considered an entrance or pit area.

You can read here that there is an exception for the berserker alone. It does not mention the Cave Troll having an exception. Neither does the Cave Troll ability explanation give it an exception status.

However the linguistics of the cave troll rule, as you highlighted above, using the term "any" does inject ambiguity.

Despite this ambiguity I think the Cave Troll should still be limited to a room with less than five characters based on it A.) not having an exception, such as the berserker or the wraith do and B.) for the sake of game balance and giving an added strategy of keeping a room maxed to protect it from Cave Trolls before scoring. This also gives the wraith more of an individual power of pushing into rooms. Of course you only play your Cave Troll once as well.

Lastly, from a linguistic stand point I believe "never" overrules "any" by being a definitive, absolute statement, and the other requiring a feasibility or concrete state of being; a "thing" or "anything". Meaning, you cannot have "any" of nothing, or you must have something for there to be "any" of that thing.
 
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Scott Lewis
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I disagree with that logic, because the exception you quote does NOT mention the Wraith, and the Wraith works by pushing figures out. The same thing basically happens with the Cave Troll - as it enters, it immediately pushes things out (and kills the rest), so there are not more than 5 in the room after placing it; just like moving a Wraith into a room doesn't violate this either, because the pushing out is pretty much simultaneous with the moving in.

Considering the origins of the game (if I recall correctly) where the Cave Troll was originally a cave-in, it wouldn't make sense for a full room to be less susceptible to collapse. Even in this theme, I'd think a full room would be more likely to attract the attention of the beast, scattering and killing the poor saps who are there and then guarding it forever more. The dumb brute recognizes there's something of value there and wants it for himself

Of course, without definitive answer from FFG, it's all just going to be based on personal interpretation, but I am very happy playing it the way that seems to be what I see as the most likely intent of how it's supposed to work. You may see that the intent was different, of course, and until there's some kind of answer, it's all just a matter of how you interpret the mechanics
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Gláucio Reis
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Considering the origins of the game (if I recall correctly) where the Cave Troll was originally a cave-in, it wouldn't make sense for a full room to be less susceptible to collapse.

That's absolutely true. I just interpret the situation with the current theme slightly different: the cave troll is there in the room, asleep and unnoticed, until the noise awakens him.
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I agree that the Cave Troll can be played in any room based on internal consistency of the rules, and without regard to what's supposed to be happening. There's precious little in this game that makes any sense from a simulation point of view.
 
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