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Subject: Attack exemple ok ? rss

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Bertrand Guillou-Keredan
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Hi,
Is this correct ?

The situation :
A card contain an LMG team unit and I want to neutralize it but there is already an friendly "VOF -1 Automatic Weapon" marker on it.

Step 1 (Friendly command Phase):
I spend 1 action to infiltrate (but not sucessfull).
The unit advance in the card and "exposed" (because unsuccessfull infiltration).
The LMG PDF (versus an adjacent card) is immediatly removed and His VOF is positionned in his card versus the US unit.


Step 2 (Friendly command Phase):
I spent 1 action to cease fire with the Assaut Team who generate the VOF-1 in the LMG card. I remove the VOF-1 and it couldn't fire anymore on this card because of the friendly unit now here.

Step 3 (General Initiative impulse)
I spent 1 pt to attempt (but failed) a Grenade attack (I target the foxholes marker with the LMG inside) with the unit that enters on the ennemy LMG card.
I spent another Initiative to Exhort (success), and I put the grenade marker on the Foxholes.
The Ennemy unit is Good Order (Not Pinned or LAT) and attempting immediatly to make a grenade attack (success)

Step 4 (Mutual Combat Phase)
I resolve the US VOF grenade Attack.:
-4 (grenade) +2 (terrain) +1 (Foxhole) : result 1 Hit

I resolve the VOF of the LMG Attack and Grenade Attack (Which one First ?)
Grenade :
-4 (Grenade) , -2 (Exposed) , +2 (terrain). : result 1 Hit (so Pinned)

and the VOF -1 Automatic Weapon.
-1 (VOF-1), -2 (exposed), +2 (terrain) +1 (Pinned by the Grenade result).: result 1 Hit

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Matt R
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You've almost got it - but a couple of things:

-The combat effects are simultaneous, so the results from the "pinned" marker on the enemy unit should not have affected the combat results on any of that unit's attacks.

-I'm not exactly following your example, but am I misreading your post to say that you performed *two* separate attacks on the same unit? You should be combining the base VOF with all of other applicable VOF modifiers together and only drawing a single card per unit.

-Also, I may have misunderstand something about the assault team but they can only attack at "point blank" range (i.e. on the same card as an enemy unit). I didn't really understand your rationale for having the assault unit cease fire. Plus, if it was in range of an enemy unit it would have opened up fire anyway. Except for grenade throw misses, your units can't hit each other if they are all on the same card and attacking at one or more enemy units on that same card with them. The chance of friendly fire is only if you have units outside of those cards firing into the card you have friendlies on.

-Don't forget that combat within a card uses the "lower" terrain cover modifier (if applicable). Not sure if you included that in your calculations or not.

On an unrelated note, I never thought about "exhorting" a failed grenade attack. I just looked at the rules and I don't ever remember reading that certain actions can't be exhorted, but now that I think about it from reading your post, I'm now thinking it perhaps silly that a grenade attack can actually be exhorted (not that you did anything wrong). But that would open up the possibilities of a lot of other actions to not be "exhortable" (heh heh - is that even a word?). I guess when thinking about exhorting a grenade attack - how would that happen? I mean, you throw the grenade and it either goes where you want it to or not. Its not like trying to exhort an off-map artillery barrage (i.e. the commander tells the radio-man to try to reach battalion or artillery control again after not getting through the first time). Hmm. Makes me wonder if perhaps the exhort should give you another grenade throw attempt, but maybe the first grenade miss should still cause the grenade miss counter to still appear? Sorry - this last paragraph was just an unrelated tangent.



 
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Roger Grossman
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Matt,

I'm not arguing with your analysis, but I'm pretty sure Ben has explicitly said any action requiring a draw is "exhortable," which would include grenade attacks. You do raise a good question about whether the first (i.e., pre-exhorted) failed attempt produces a Miss marker. Another good one for CSW.

Roger
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Andreas Krüger
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The planning and execution of the action were correct, but there are some mistakes in the resolution.

- Yes, assault teams have only point blank range, so the heavy fire should not have been there.

- I am not sure if grenade throws may be self-exhorted. This should be explained either in the rules or the errata. Check this - it may be that you need a HQ to exhort a grenade throw.

- Your unit should only be hit by the worst possible fire of the round, except that a grenade miss would be additional IIRC. So, you would have been hit by the grenade only and not also by the automatic fire.

- And yes, all fire is simultanous and pinned markers will apply for the next round, not for this round. But as you resolve only the worst fire modifier, the pinned would not have been there :-).
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Bertrand Guillou-Keredan
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Quote:
The combat effects are simultaneous, so the results from the "pinned" marker on the enemy unit should not have affected the combat results on any of that unit's attacks


OK

Quote:
I'm not exactly following your example, but am I misreading your post to say that you performed *two* separate attacks on the same unit?


Because if there are 2 units in a card. One is under cover (and targeted by the grenade) and another one not under cover, the VOF it's different no ?. It is likely that I did not understand this rule...

Quote:
-Also, I may have misunderstand something about the assault team but they can only attack at "point blank" range


yes it's a mistake..consider for my example an US Wpns (MG) with A-L.

Quote:
Except for grenade throw misses, your units can't hit each other if they are all on the same card and attacking at one or more enemy units on that same card with them


It is likely that I did also not understand this rule...I believed that a unit could be hit by friendly VOF when it advance on it.

Quote:
Don't forget that combat within a card uses the "lower" terrain cover modifier


yes , in this example it's a +2 Hedgerow/Bocage.

Quote:
I don't ever remember reading that certain actions can't be exhorted,

Is there a detailed list on which action are forbidden for "Exhort" ?



Thank's very much for the help.
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Roger Grossman
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Quote:
I am not sure if grenade throws may be self-exhorted. This should be explained either in the rules or the errata. Check this - it may be that you need a HQ to exhort a grenade throw.


The only units that may self-exhort are HQ and Staff. Any other exhort action must originate with a HQ/Staff, even if it takes place in the General Initiative Impulse (3.3.2d in the errata).

Quote:
Is there a detailed list on which action are forbidden for "Exhort"?


Any action for which you draw a card may be exhorted. The rules imply this, and, as I said above, I'm pretty sure Ben explicitly said it over on CSW. Feel free, though, to double-check with him.

Quote:
Your unit should only be hit by the worst possible fire of the round, except that a grenade miss would be additional IIRC. So, you would have been hit by the grenade only and not also by the automatic fire.


Just to clarify: Grenade Miss, Concentrate Fire, and Crossfire VOFs are all cumulative both with each other and other VOFs. Those are the ONLY VOFs that work like that. So, a German unit under a Grenade and a Concentrate Fire VOF, on card with a Crossfire and a Miss VOF, would suffer a total VOF modifier of -7 (-4 for Grenade, -1 for each of the other three modifiers). A successful grenade attack does not, however, combine with, say, an Incoming, -3 Sniper, or H VOF.

Hope this helps,

Roger

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Matt R
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Roger,
You're right that the grenade overrules the normal (base) VOF. I wasn't near a rulebook to double check that earlier today.

I also never intended to say that certain actions could not be exhorted (as the rules currently state). I was only commenting as an aside that some of the repercussions from exhorting certain actions seemed silly and perhaps could use some clarification; an example being that if a grenade throw attempt is not successful then I wondered if perhaps the rule should be changed so that a "miss" marker is still placed - OR - if the exhort attempt is made *prior* to any cards getting drawn, then you get a +1 card draw attempt prior to the grenade getting thrown (representing that the leader made sure the squad didn't rush too much or get overly sloppy with the grenade attempt). But, as the rules currently read, these would all need to be variant or "house" rules. Personally, the way I think I'll be playing is to go ahead and place the miss marker, and pretend that the leader "exhorted" the grenade attempt by telling the squad to try again after that first bad throw... unless Ben or someone else has any better ideas. Just seems to be "gaming" the system a bit much for my tastes otherwise...


Bertrand,
So long as you were only drawing one card per unit in the combat phase (to see if they were hit or not) then that is all I intended to verify. The way your example read it almost seemed as if you were possibly making two separate attack resolutions on the same unit.
 
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Roger Grossman
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Re: Attack example ok ?
Quote:
Personally, the way I think I'll be playing is to go ahead and place the miss marker, and pretend that the leader "exhorted" the grenade attempt by telling the squad to try again after that first bad throw... unless Ben or someone else has any better ideas.


Your reasoning sounds right to me, Matt; that's the way I'll play it, too. It also sounds consistent with the rules, which say: "You can declare this [exhort] action once for any failed attempt." That doesn't sound like you declare it before the attempt and get an extra draw.

Thanks,

Roger

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Bertrand Guillou-Keredan
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Quote:
Except for grenade throw misses, your units can't hit each other if they are all on the same card and attacking at one or more enemy units on that same card with them

Where is this rule..?
I just find this in the rulebook :
6.3.a :
"The VOF applies to all occupants of the card regardless of which side they are"
and in the clarification :
"A US unit will not open fire throught a card containing another US unit. However, if a US unit with an existing PDF will continue to fire at a card even in another friendly unit moves into that card"

Quote:
The only units that may self-exhort are HQ and Staff

??
In the Table 4.2.1 The recipient is "Any subordinate unit"
And it's the "General Initiative Impulse", so no Originator (HQ/Staff) needed.

Quote:
would suffer a total VOF modifier of -7


The maximum is -4.no ?

About the grenade Attack:
I just add a cumulative VOF of -4 for the unit targeted. Correct ?

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Matt R
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I'm not positive exactly where in the rules it is, but my understanding is that two "base" VOF markers are placed on the card when units from both sides are sharing the card. On top of that you then add other VOF modifiers that impact everyone on the card (including anyone from either side shooting at that card).

So, let's say you've got the following all on the same card with +2 terrain cover:
-U.S. rifle squad 1/1 who is exposed (-2 VOF modifier)
-U.S. rifle squad 1/2 who is pinned (+1 pinned marker, and +0 base VOF)
-German rifle squad (+0 base VOF) in a foxhole (+1 cover)
-German LMG (-1 Automatic VOF) in trenches (+2 cover)
-A grenade miss (-1 VOF modifier)
-A grenade success on the trenches (-4 VOF, but will overrule all other base VOFs)

PLUS, located on adjacent cards and shooting into the above card:
-U.S. LMG firing onto the card (their fire wasn't ceased or shifted) so they have a -1 Automatic base VOF


Alright. Here's how each unit would end up for calculations of VOF and modifiers projected onto them:
U.S. rifle squad 1/1: -1 base VOF (from U.S. LMG off the card but firing into this card or from the -1 from the German LMG on the same card) -2 exposed +2 terrain cover -1 grenade miss = -2 total

U.S. rifle squad 1/2: -1 base VOF (from U.S. LMG off the card but firing into this card or from the -1 from the German LMG on the same card) +1 pinned +2 terrain cover -1 grenade miss = +1 total

German rifle squad: -1 base VOF (from U.S. LMG off the card but firing into this card - if the U.S. LMG wasn't firing into this card then its base VOF affecting it would be 0) +1 foxhole +2 terrain cover -1 grenade miss = +1 total

German LMG: -4 base VOF (it would get the -1 from the U.S. LMG off the card but firing into this card but the successful grenade tossed into its cover marker "overrules" its normal base VOF) +2 trenches +2 terrain cover -1 grenade miss = -1 total


You then draw a single card for each unit. Note how the German LMG only affects the U.S. units on the same card with it, but the U.S. LMG affects *everyone* on the card (including friendly U.S. units) because they are just firing into the card.

I may have gotten some math wrong, or even a couple of the modifiers wrong, but I hope its clear as to how all the calculations work.


Bertrand,
Yes, the max is -4 VOF, but I think the example given of -7 was just in case there were any positive VOF modifiers (like terrain or cover) which may take it down to -5 or -4. Its just that the initial calculation would be -7 (but with a realistic maximum of -4 when it comes down to it).

The grenade miss (-1 VOF modifier) marker is cumulative with other VOF modifiers although no more than one grenade miss marker can be on the same card at the same time. The grenade "success" marker (-4 VOF) on the other hand supplants any other "base" type of VOF such as small arms (+0 VOF) or automatic (-1 VOF) to give a couple of examples. I included its use in my extended example above.

Roger,
I think you may be correct about the exhorting the grenade failure - I didn't think about it that way. So... even if you failed the grenade toss the first time, it is likely that the rules already handle it - it was a failure, so you place a missed grenade marker. THEN you could still exhort if you wished, and since a second missed grenade marker can't be placed, then no big deal if you miss again.



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Bertrand Guillou-Keredan
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Very clear NOW ! Thx

About the Exhort and initiative : i find this thread (Roger is right):
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/402304
But i have not this errata.


Another (and last example)

If the ennemy card contain an Ennemy Fire team (S - L) and a friendly VOF -2 automatic from an US LMG card adjacent.
If a friendly unit advance in this card but want to avoid the VOF-2 (US LMG). I must ordered "move" or "infiltrate" first, then "Cease Fire" the LMG.
I have just the VOF 0 Small Arms of the ennemy Fire team. That is ?
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Roger Grossman
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Quote:
Yes, the max is -4 VOF, but I think the example given of -7 was just in case there were any positive VOF modifiers (like terrain or cover) which may take it down to -5 or -4. Its just that the initial calculation would be -7 (but with a realistic maximum of -4 when it comes down to it).


Correct. The -4 limit is the FINAL modifier limit after all positive modifiers have been taken into account.

Quote:
But i have not this errata.


3.3.2d

Quote:
I may have gotten some math wrong, or even a couple of the modifiers wrong, but I hope its clear as to how all the calculations work.


All looks right to me!

Quote:
If the ennemy card contain an Enemy Fire team (S - L) and a friendly VOF -2 automatic from an US LMG card adjacent. If a friendly unit advance in this card but want to avoid the VOF-2 (US LMG), I must ordered "move" or "infiltrate" first, then "Cease Fire" the LMG.


Right. But the A VOF from an LMG is -1, not -2.

Quote:
I have just the VOF 0 Small Arms of the enemy Fire team. That i[t]?


Yes, plus the VOF of U.S. unit that just moved in. The enemy VOF affects the U.S. unit, and the U.S. VOF affects the enemy unit. By the way, this is covered in 6.3b in the rules (although I agree it could be made clearer)

Quote:
So... even if you failed the grenade toss the first time, it is likely that the rules already handle it - it was a failure, so you place a missed grenade marker. THEN you could still exhort if you wished, and since a second missed grenade marker can't be placed, then no big deal if you miss again.


Exactly!

Quote:
Another (and last example)


It doesn't have to be the last, Bertrand. Keep the questions coming. Remember, if you don't understand something, others probably don't, either!

Roger


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Matt R
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Bertrand,
Well, the way the game rules work, you sometimes may actually have to first move in at least one U.S. unit onto the card containing the enemy units and then perform the shift or cease fire on any friendly unit(s) currently still firing onto that card.

The reason for resolving the commands in this particular order is because if you simply ordered the off-card U.S. LMG unit to cease fire before moving a friendly U.S. unit onto the card, the VOF placement rules may make your LMG may very well start firing automatically again at the card they were just firing at. It all depends on the VOF placement rules (so they may actually automatically fire at another card instead, but usually they will continue to fire at the card they were just previously firing at).

On the other hand, if you move one of your units onto the card first, *then* issue the cease fire to units still firing at that card then they will either change their fire automatically to a different card or just stop firing (as they won't initiate fire onto a card containing a friendly unit).

Whew! Make sense?
 
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Roger Grossman
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Well said, Matt.

Roger
 
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Bertrand Guillou-Keredan
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Quote:
Well, the way the game rules work, you sometimes may actually have to first move in at least one U.S. unit onto the card containing the enemy units and then perform the shift or cease fire on any friendly unit(s) currently still firing onto that card.


yes sure !
It is as well for it as I respected the order of these actions in my example above.

I am going to go on holiday with this game for 3 week and I would not miss to have some other questions in my return.

Matt and Roger, thank you for everything.cool
 
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Matt R
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You're welcome Bertrand.

By the way, you did download the advanced example of play from here or GMT's website? It goes into more detail than the original example of play that only covered a single turn...

Also, feel free to ask questions. The rules in this game are not always as clear as they could be even though a rewrite is currently in the works by GMT.

Have a nice holiday!
 
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Roger Grossman
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Matt and Roger, thank you for everything.


My pleasure.

Roger
 
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