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Subject: On rape rss

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Big Woo
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Re: +1 Thread of Rape
[ Edit: Just to make it very clear, I did not start this thread, I responded to something that I found utterly offensive and that has now been deleted, including all the follow-ups by the same author. ]


OK, I'll bite in the hope I'm the last one, just to state the rather obvious: you know what rape actually means? You can't voluntary participate in it. What are you on about? [please don't answer - I really don't want to know - I just know that others will be too upset to see it even phrased that way].

Fun thread? -1 and then some.
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Re: +1 Thread of Rape
If your middle name were Ã…woman I'll bet you'd boycott this thread.
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The Steak Fairy
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Re: +1 Thread of Rape
Further, using the peccadilloes of the Japanese to justify anything is just stupid. They make video games out of being bus drivers, FFS.
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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Re: +1 Thread of Rape
Idea of "rape" as a fetish is as Big Woo says somewhat problematic if one considers that the real rape can not by definition be consensual.

Of course, there are men and women who can get a lot of pleasure of the idea of mock or pretend rape under conditions that make the experience safe and consensual (I tend to avoid "sane", despite cool alliteration). Ofcourse, once you set up your "mock-rape" as a consensual activity question is what differentiates it from "regular" bondage sex of some kind ?

In all I would say clear of the word "rape" leaving it to clearly mark non-consensual intercourse and stick with terms such as bondage, S&M, Fdom, Mdom etc, for those activities whereby people are pretending at the lack of consent.

I also entirely disagree that all sexual tension comes from the transgression of social norms. I am not sure how anyone who has ever had good sex with a steady partner could possibly think that. There is definitively some pleasure to be gained from sexual exploration but there is also quite a bit to be had in retracing the well-known ground.

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Re: +1 Thread of Rape
Rape is not a sexual taboo; rape is violence.
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HavocIsHere wrote:
Rape is not a sexual taboo; rape is violence.


QFT.

Rape isn't about sex. Rape is about power and control.

-DK
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Big Woo
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I'm one of the ones that suggested in a PM that, at the bare minumum, and if you must, out of consideration to others here on BGG, to change the title to "rape fantasies", but you refused that after consideration, and still equate all this with rape.

In your PM and here, you only keep showing you have no idea what rape actually is. You keep somehow putting rape fantasies in the same plane as rape. Rape fantasies are just an extreme form of (voluntary) submission. It isn't even anywhere near the same ballpark. They are on OPPOSITE sides and mutually exclusive. One is a exteremely exciting and fun for the voluntary submitter. The other is ONE OF THE MOST HORRIBLE EXPERIENCES YOU CAN PUT ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THROUGH, A HORRENDOUS VIOLENT CRIME.

I don't care if rape is a cute taboo in your book, as you depict it. You say you know the differnce. Start showing it. Change your wording.

Rape is violence against another human being. And of a horrendous variety.

It is a shame it is a taboo subject (btw, again a very different form of taboo than what you depict it as - again, your insight is non-existing).

Many rapers actually bragg (to chosen someones). If it is a taboo, it is one for the VICTIM. It is the one that gets raped that finds it hard to be open about it. So, all too often it remains a hidden crime, with a victim that suffers even more as a consequence. Victims often feel ashamed, whne they really have not a single reason to feel that. Being raped breaks the spirit of many people. It is a horrific invasion of your human self. Worse, the REALLY BRAVE PEOPLE that report the crime, go through another hell, and find that it is very hard to get convictions. Why? Because many people (like you) think for some reason it is sex. Andd if you are male you were just lucky! You haven't got a clue. As a personal "experience", life doesn't often get more shitty than being raped.

All this peddling of rape as sex is NOT HELPING. If you care.

But you seem to get a kick out of being controversial, so why care?

Hey, let's make it real fun, and do one on rape in the family. That'll do the trick. 2 taboos for the price of one! It excites many, and there are sooo many jap games on it. AND you can have even more "collateral" to put smileys behind. It's the more common form of rape, so bingo.... oh the fun we are having.

From your MP to me:

Quote:
If I make someone on the internet uncomfortable then that's quite acceptable as collateral


Let me be clear about this: I find that attitude repugnant, and vile considering the subject at hand. Hey, it's the internet. I don't care your father raped you when you were 3, I am the sort of person who thinks of myself as so above it and wonderful that making you uncomfortable is something to actually apsire to. Heck, I will even smile it away when challenged! This is a boardgame site on the internet that really could do with my sort of attitude to spice things up. After all, I am so right and I am fab!

I know folk who it has happened to, one already has commented that they hoped someone would have some fun with you, and then see how you'd react to a fun +2 thread on the subject.

Anyone with a bit of empathy, or even a bit of insight on subject, would stop stressing the importance of calling "rape fantacies" "rape", especially after it is being pointed out to them that there are real differences, and that there are real people here on BGG. To make an actual argumentat why "rape" stays your preferred subject header, just makes me really wish some people would find other places to post, and others would stop posting here, so it just goes away as quicly as possible.

I just wanted to highlight what your stated attitude is to fellow people on BGG, that you couldn't care less if it makes those that are uncomfortable with it are being made (totally uncalled for) made unconfortable again. It is SOOO important you post this and insist we should use the eword rape for a fantasy that isn't rape in any of its definitions.

Most folk on RSP can get very heated and outspoke on many subjects. Congratulations, you are the first who sees it as some heroic duty to be cute with a horrific crime, and takes some pride in making victims uncomfortable, or thinks this post adds something to RSP. Can you make it go away please. Feel free to start one on rape fantasies if you must. "On Rape" is still is vile as the "FUN WITH RAPE+1". You're not
getting it.

Think!


===============

Addition taken from a PM conversation with a participant here.



The problem is that 2 concepts (rape and the fantasy) appear incredibly similar, but are miles apart. Sex and violence. Transgression and submission.

A purpetrator rape-fantacist (from a sexual point of view) is significantly different from a rapist. A rapist gets off on, and desires, CONTROL, not sex. A rape-fantasist gets off on SEX, not control (hence voluntary sublission and safe words). Some look like fantasists, but can easily slip from one mind set to the other, but the moment that happens, they only prove it was never about sex, but all about control. They were raping all along.

In our heads it is very hard to keep these two motivational differnces apart, as from the outside they appear quite similar, and we get our discussion mixed up.

Someone who submits to these fantasies from a victim point of view, also gets off on CONTROL, but in a different way. Without actually losing control, rather the opposite. Hence safe words. They get something from dreaming/acting out the illusion. In this case a sexual kick. Which isn't anything like the real thing.

Like undergoing waterboarding in training bears no relation to ACTUAL torture. NONE.

It is very easy to spot that the mindset and goals of a torturer (sadist) bears no relation to the mindset and goals of the instructor. NONE. The poster keeps thinking it does, beecause both involve water and someone getting dunked. Real rape isn't about exciting norms etc, any more than murder is about breaking the norm. It is about GAIN and CONTROL.

Rape fantasies are exciting, rarely because it involves norms, mostly because it involves CONTROL. What excites people in sex can be related to things that have nothing to do with sex, and people with rape fantacies probably deal with CONTROL issues, and/or like to explore it, or be exposed to it, in a SAFE envoronment. It is not SEX. It is an addition to sex. And addition that can heighten the excitement of sex.

The poster still thinks there is some overlap between rape fantasies and rape. Keeps missin the point. Keeps adding to the delusion that rape is a form of sex.
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Jorge Montero
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I have trouble using a definition of taboo that would include rape. You see, most taboos I can think of are limited to a relatively small set of societies, and are rather artificial: It's quite easy to form a society that breaks them with very minor ill effects. We can say that of even taboos in western society, like necrophilia, incest and sex with children. A society where necrophilia was acceptable might have a slightly lower average life expectancy, but it really wouldn't be that big of a deal. Even sex with people under 16/18/21 would not be that big of a deal as long as it was consensual.

Now, rape is in a different category altogether. A society where rape among the general population is an acceptable custom has sever problems, if just the fact that the gender that doesn't have the right to avoid having sex doesn't have the same rights as the other. If we allowed random raping of females, chances are that we'd, at the very least, not see them work, because a very large majority of women would want to avoid being in a situations where someone would even consider raping them. They'd be hidden away and protected, like noble females in the middle ages.

So we'd have to extend our idea of taboo to anything that a society doesn't accept. Then we'd be calling arson,slavery and robbery taboos, which conceptually doesn't make any sense to me.

The rape fantasies that you talk about are rarely about real rape: It's not about physical control of an unwilling victim that kicks and screams and bleeds. That's the psycho version. More often than not, they involve one person not wanting any sexual act at first, but enjoying themselves in the end by the skill of the aggressor, whether purely sexual, or just skills at breaking the other person's will. In the end, the 'victim' wasn't really unwilling after all: they still enjoy the process, even if it's against what they wanted at first. The difference in behavior between someone trying to fulfill such a fantasy and a real rapist is so large, they don't really belong together.

And that's a lot more analysis than the original post really deserved.
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Johannes,

I disagree with so many of your factual assumptions (that sexual excitement derives from taboo-breaking per se, that sexual advances and "political correctness" are incompatible, etc.) that it's unsurprising that I find your conclusions somewhere in the incomprehensible-to-ludicrous zone.

What I have is some questions for you. First, I'll introduce three scenarios; all involve adults. Let's call the aggressor in each "R" and the more-passive participant "V".

1. V has become unconscious due to extreme intoxication. R uses this opportunity to have sex with V. In the morning, V realizes this.

2. R and V have been sexually active in the past. One day, they argue and then commence what is likely to lead to "make up sex". V asks that they stop. Instead of complying, R physically pins V down and completes a sex act as V struggles and cries.

3. V is walking down a street and is pushed into an alleyway by R, who slams V's head into the pavement, holds a knife to V's throat and forces his penis into V's mouth.

Now, the questions.

- Am I assuming correctly that when you refer to the sexual excitement of rape, you are looking at things completely through R's eyes?

- If not, could you please explain to me the nature of V's sexual excitement that you imagine here?

- Regardless, could you please explain the nature of R's sexual excitement that you imagine?
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Lawson
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BigWoo wrote:
I'm one of the ones that suggested in a PM that, at the bare minumum, and if you must, out of consideration to others here on BGG, to change the title to "rape fantasies", but you refused that after consideration, and still equate all this with rape.


Why are you assuming that what he's discussing is rape fantasies rather than rape? My read of the original post is that he is, in fact, discussing the sexual excitement engendered by rape itself.
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Sen045 wrote:
What I'm trying to do is throw things out there, have fun with it, and hopefully making people think about things in new ways while of course letting the same happen to me.


Sir, I just cannot see how the words "fun" and "rape" can be in the same sentence, let alone the same thought. Have fun with the idea of rape? Frankly, the thought of whatever else you might want to have "fun" with scares me to death.
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Sen045 wrote:

The nature of the sexual excitement I speak of does not pertain to the act of rape per se. I'm imagining the sexual tension I'm speaking of to be embedded in the idea of rape, and the stigma around rape, rather than the act itself.


Hummm I Agree with Big Woo and some others that being a willing bottom/submissive participator in rape fantasies is a totally different thing than actual rape. I would go even further and say that being a Top is totally different in those situations.

In all the cases of people I know who engage in these behaviors, including myself, the "stigma" or "taboo" has nothing to do with the excitement or the sexual tension. If anything knowing real rape exists and occurs is a detractor from the experiences that must be worked around/over come.

One of the things that one has to be careful of and/or fear if they like being a bottom/sub that at some point you might end up accidentally with a wacko who actually is a rapist, Somebody who cares nothing about the actual sex and is pathologically interested in genuine violence and/or control. Because for them to enjoy it, it is almost a given that their partner cannot. Which is a diametric opposite from a genuine "top" because "tops" are deeply vested in pleasing their partners. Often even more so than in a normal sexual pairing.

In addition a powerfully built man who can overpower me is exciting the same way a roller coaster is exciting. All that controlled power adds fun and tension. I love riding roller coasters. However being forced to ride a rickety roller coaster that might really derail wouldn't be any fun at all, it would be horrible and terrifying the entire time. Similarly on the rare occasions I have been around men who I got a "vibe" that they would be willing to genuinely just take what they want without regard for a partner I feel uncomfortable and my skin crawls (even if I know *I* am perfectly safe) not excited.

So no I don't think the taboo concept as a tension builder holds up at all for either gender.

And as a person who enjoys being a bottom and even participates in rape fantasies I can say with complete assurance that the taboo part has nothing to do with my interest/enjoyment in those games nor has it been with any of my previous partners or my friends I talk about these things with.
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There is a lot of tension and energy in violence. And killing.
And in destroying people's sense of self. And in being the victim of violence, killing and psychological maiming. That human sexuality can get a charge through considering these horrors is unsurprising.

"..., voluntarily participate in the most stigmatized sexual act of our time..."

At least one person involved will, by definition, be involved involuntarily.

Promoting the consideration of the energies around rape using a enticing and drastically incomplete rape scenario without being very clear and explicit about the differences between rape and rape fantasies is irresponsible and destructive of trust and social bonds.

Do not continue to do this here.
 
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lotus dweller
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"A sexual act" - this is an act in which the actor feels sexual excitement or even categorises it as sexual.

Us humans can sexualize anything we feel or think, as far as I can see.

A quick gutter crawl through the www shows the uncountable ways in which this occurs.
 
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Next up... a discussion on the merits of cannibalism.
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chiddler wrote:
DCAnderson wrote:
chiddler wrote:
DKahnt wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
Rape is not a sexual taboo; rape is violence.


QFT.

Rape isn't about sex. Rape is about power and control.

-DK


I've never understood this nonsensical line of argument.

Of course rape is about sex, but its about power and control AS WELL.

A rapist is sexually excited by rape just as a pedophile is sexually excited by children (and since not every pedophile ever actually molests children, pedophiles are not all rapists).

If rape wasn't about sex, rapists wouldn't take their pants off.

I feel that people who insist on this argument imagine that 'sex' is somehow something with an intrinsic emotional content and meaning, but it isn't. Sex as part of a long, loving marriage, the passion of sex in first love, a casual one night fling, an encounter with a prostitute or a violent rape are all sex - and they are all different. There's nothing inherently good or bad about sex, its context that matters, and rape is a very bad context.



While I'm sure what you're saying is technically true, you're pretty much splitting hairs. Whatever honest to goodness sexual aspects to it there are, they are rendered moot by virtue of the violent, horrible, degrading act that it is.


No, it matters. For goodness sake how many cases of date rape are there every year, where to perpetrator is nothing more than a drunken fool who thinks he has a right to the sex he thought he was going to get. if you don't understand that rape IS sexual you'll never understand, or be able to do anything to reduce that.

I don't really understand what you mean by 'rendered moot'. The claim that 'rape has nothing to do with sex' is a ludicrous one that fails utterly to appreciate the psychology behind it and tries to give all rapists the same motives.

Some rapists need the control and violence to get excited, others just don't care one way or the other - its extremely unlikely that an alcohol-fuelled date rape is primarily about power, any more than causing death while drunk driving is about a desire to kill


What he said.
Rape *is* about sex (in a large number of cases at least) in the same sense that violent mugging is very often about obtaining material goods. This neither "justifies" it nor makes it equivalent to the normal consensual sexual act - any more then the above mentioned violent mugging is equivalent to buying an ipod in a store.

One (of many) ways to see that is the very close correlation in propensity of soldiers in war time for rape and plunder. Once an individual is convinced they can get one thing they want with violence (money) there is not a great mental leap to them figuring they can get another (sex). Study of rape in wartime (by far the most prevalent form of rape) also shows that rape victims who resist sexual intercourse are by far more likely to be injured or killed then those who do not which would not be the case if the lust for power and control was the main deciding factor.

Once again, rape is truly one of the most horrible crimes but it makes no sense to ignore its very basic roots in sexual urges if one wants to be able to do anything about it.
 
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chiddler wrote:

......

Its notable here in New Zealand that discussions of Maori cultural pride and traditional ways rarely seem to touch on the twin indigenous traditions of cannibalism and slavery. I'm all for a revival, personally - it'd liven up the place!

When they want to feel pride they focus on things they feel proud about. And avoid things that are less tasteful. Well maybe very tasty but not seen as wholesome. Well maybe wholesome but not fulfilling. Well maybe fulfilling but not productive of a modern appearance.

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bramadan wrote:


What he said.
Rape *is* about sex (in a large number of cases at least) in the same sense that violent mugging is very often about obtaining material goods. This neither "justifies" it nor makes it equivalent to the normal consensual sexual act - any more then the above mentioned violent mugging is equivalent to buying an ipod in a store.

One (of many) ways to see that is the very close correlation in propensity of soldiers in war time for rape and plunder. Once an individual is convinced they can get one thing they want with violence (money) there is not a great mental leap to them figuring they can get another (sex). Study of rape in wartime (by far the most prevalent form of rape) also shows that rape victims who resist sexual intercourse are by far more likely to be injured or killed then those who do not which would not be the case if the lust for power and control was the main deciding factor.

Once again, rape is truly one of the most horrible crimes but it makes no sense to ignore its very basic roots in sexual urges if one wants to be able to do anything about it.
I agree with a lot of what you write.
But I do not see you (or anyone else) as having shown it to be likely that the "very basic roots" of rape lie in only one field. Its a human behaviour and the gaps between our understandings of our physiology, potential motivations, and actions are immense.
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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I whole heartedly agree with Pinook.

I did not say that *all* roots of Rape lie in sexual urges - just that some do and that it is counter productive to ignore them (which unfortunately many people studying rape do).

Human behavior is extremely complex and reducing it to a few pithy slogans or mechanistic patterns is a recipe for disaster.
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chiddler wrote:
DCAnderson wrote:
chiddler wrote:
DKahnt wrote:
HavocIsHere wrote:
Rape is not a sexual taboo; rape is violence.


QFT.

Rape isn't about sex. Rape is about power and control.

-DK


I've never understood this nonsensical line of argument.

Of course rape is about sex, but its about power and control AS WELL.

A rapist is sexually excited by rape just as a pedophile is sexually excited by children (and since not every pedophile ever actually molests children, pedophiles are not all rapists).

If rape wasn't about sex, rapists wouldn't take their pants off.

I feel that people who insist on this argument imagine that 'sex' is somehow something with an intrinsic emotional content and meaning, but it isn't. Sex as part of a long, loving marriage, the passion of sex in first love, a casual one night fling, an encounter with a prostitute or a violent rape are all sex - and they are all different. There's nothing inherently good or bad about sex, its context that matters, and rape is a very bad context.



While I'm sure what you're saying is technically true, you're pretty much splitting hairs. Whatever honest to goodness sexual aspects to it there are, they are rendered moot by virtue of the violent, horrible, degrading act that it is.


No, it matters. For goodness sake how many cases of date rape are there every year, where to perpetrator is nothing more than a drunken fool who thinks he has a right to the sex he thought he was going to get. if you don't understand that rape IS sexual you'll never understand, or be able to do anything to reduce that.

I don't really understand what you mean by 'rendered moot'. The claim that 'rape has nothing to do with sex' is a ludicrous one that fails utterly to appreciate the psychology behind it and tries to give all rapists the same motives.

Some rapists need the control and violence to get excited, others just don't care one way or the other - its extremely unlikely that an alcohol-fuelled date rape is primarily about power, any more than causing death while drunk driving is about a desire to kill


No.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/13935-rape/

http://www.azrapeprevention.org/agency_updates/2004/07-SACAS...

http://endteacherabuse.org/rapists.html

http://www.cuw.edu/tools/current_students/student_services/c...

I can go on.

I have spent countless hours with victims of rape.

It is not about sex. Its about power and control.

Get your facts right.

-DK
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Magic Pink
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DKahnt wrote:


I have spent countless hours with victims of rape.


How many rapists have you spent time with?

It is about sex. It's power and control through the medium of sex.

Saying it's not about sex is like saying painting is about the color and has nothing to do with the paint.
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Magic Pink wrote:
DKahnt wrote:


I have spent countless hours with victims of rape.


How many rapists have you spent time with?

It is about sex. It's power and control through the medium of sex.

Saying it's not about sex is like saying painting is about the color and has nothing to do with the paint.


I can say not many - if at all... if they were, I did not know.

How many victims survivors and rapists have you talked with?

-DK
 
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Four. But even if I hadn't met any ever that still wouldn't disprove my point.

Show me a rape case where sex wasn't involved and I'll believe it has nothing to do with sex.
 
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Magic Pink wrote:
DKahnt wrote:


I have spent countless hours with victims of rape.


How many rapists have you spent time with?

It is about sex. It's power and control through the medium of sex.

Saying it's not about sex is like saying painting is about the color and has nothing to do with the paint.


Gotta disagree with you one this one... sex is the *weapon* of choice in rape. That doesn't make it motivated by sexual needs, that makes sex the tool. Kind of like a murderer who prefers a gun to a knife as opposed to a gun enthusiast who cannot imagine every killing a person. For the Murderer the gun is an ends to a means, for the gun enthusiast is it about the beauty of the machine and mastering a skill.

Sex is about procreation and enjoyment of physical stimulus on sexual organs. Rape is about enjoying domination and degradation of another human being. It is no more "sexual" than somebody who really enjoys just beating up of another human being but who doesn't rape them, since the enjoyment doesn't come from the sex but from the infliction of pain.
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Magic Pink wrote:
Four. But even if I hadn't met any ever that still wouldn't disprove my point.

Show me a rape case where sex wasn't involved and I'll believe it has nothing to do with sex.


There certainly are plenty of cases were the "rape" involved shoving other things besides penises into people and where rapists do not or cannot actually achieve orgasms. Does that count?
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