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Subject: Do you collect on both the house AND the hotel? rss

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Cortland Honn
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When collecting rents and you've moved up from owning a house on a property to owning a hotel, do you collect money on BOTH the hotel AND the house?

(taken from another post, but still unanswered I believe - sorry if answered and I missed it )
 
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Wally Jones
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No. Rents are not cumulative.
 
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Rygel wrote:
No. Rents are not cumulative.


I disagree.

The house stays in play when the hotel is played, and there is nothing in the rules stating that you stop collecting the house when you place the hotel.

OTHERWISE, it's more beneficial to play the hotel as CASH every single time - the difference between the house and hotel is a mere $1.

As such, I believe (and the way we play) is that if a property set is complete with house AND hotel, that you are charging +$7 over the full property set value.
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Mike Miller

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I strongly agree with BT Carpenter.
There's a FAQ (which doesn't address this specific question) at http://www.hasbro.com/monopoly/en_US/discover/faq.cfm

But Hasbro encourages you to email them for rule clarifications at
http://www.hasbro.com/customer-service/

-Mike

byronczimmer wrote:
Rygel wrote:
No. Rents are not cumulative.


I disagree.

The house stays in play when the hotel is played, and there is nothing in the rules stating that you stop collecting the house when you place the hotel.

OTHERWISE, it's more beneficial to play the hotel as CASH every single time - the difference between the house and hotel is a mere $1.

As such, I believe (and the way we play) is that if a property set is complete with house AND hotel, that you are charging +$7 over the full property set value.
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Gary Heidenreich
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byronczimmer wrote:
Rygel wrote:
No. Rents are not cumulative.


I disagree.

The house stays in play when the hotel is played, and there is nothing in the rules stating that you stop collecting the house when you place the hotel.

OTHERWISE, it's more beneficial to play the hotel as CASH every single time - the difference between the house and hotel is a mere $1.

As such, I believe (and the way we play) is that if a property set is complete with house AND hotel, that you are charging +$7 over the full property set value.


We played for the first time over the weekend and played it as quoted above. Made sense.
 
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Mike Miller

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DEFINITIVE ANSWER (Re: Do you collect on both the house AND the hotel?)
Well, it appears that BT Carpenter and I were wrong. I emailed Hasbro directly to ask them for clarification, and the answer is that having a house and a hotel on a set of properties only adds 4 to the rent (not seven). I asked a bunch of other questions, too. Here's the full text:

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

Hi Mike,

Thank you for contacting Hasbro, Inc. regarding the Monopoly Deal game.

In regards to your game play questions:

Q: Once a house (or house and hotel) is played on a set of properties, can it (they) be moved to another set of properties (on my turn) in order to collect higher rent?

A: Yes, if a house/hotel is played on a set of properties, it can be moved to another set of properties so the player (on their turn) can collect higher rent.

Q: If I am forced to give up a house or hotel to pay a debt, can the collecting player put the house/hotel on his own [complete] set of properties? What does he do if he has no complete sets?

A: If you pay with property it must go into the other players property. If you pay from your bank the other player must bank. If the opponent does not have a complete set, he still has to lay it down and then build on when he can.

Q: Suppose I have two green properties, and a green/blue wild card (completing my green set), and on top of that I have a house. On my turn, I lay down a blue property, and then move my blue/green wild card over to complete my blue property set (and breaking up my green set). I must then also transfer the house to my blue property set, correct?

A: You have to transfer this house to the blue set because the green set is no longer complete.

Q: If I have both a house and a hotel on a set of properties, does this mean that I collect whatever normal rent for the property set +7 (for both the house and the hotel)?

A: Just for the hotel. just like the board game

We want to assure you that we are dedicated to maintaining quality products and service. We hope you and your family will continue to enjoy our products for many years to come.

Again, thank you for contacting us.

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Interesting... My replies are as follows:

Houses/Hotels are ACTION CARDS. Action Cards can either be BANKED (option A) or PLAYED (option C).

The rules discussing 'How to pay other players' indicates that you can pay with cards from your bank, properties, or a combination of both.

Houses/Hotels are neither banked action/money cards NOR Properties.

So, once a House/Hotel is on a property, they don't actually have any monetary value, the 'money' symbol is the wrong direction.

This invalidates the concept that a house can be used as a payment and kept in play as a house or transferred to another player.

Indeed, the way we play it, if the set a house is built in is broken, the house is immediately discarded as it is no longer on a valid set. Nor do we allow houses/hotels to be transferred between property sets. The only way a house/hotel transfers ownership is if the entire set is transferred due to a DEAL BREAKER, which explicitly states that it also steals any buildings.

Rules for House/Hotel
Quote:

Add these cards onto a full set of properties to add to the rent value.
* You can only have one house and one hotel on any set.
* You can only add a hotel to a property set after you've added a house.
* You cannot add houses or hotels onto Railroads or Utilities sets.



-=-=-=-

On the read above, it seems like the guys at Hasbro are considering House/Hotels to be properties that can only be played on complete sets. That doesn't parse with me.

It also doesn't parse that a Hotel card bumps the rent only an additional +1. The card is worth 4M if you bank it, and unless you can charge rent twice due to the hotel, won't generate more income than that from other players. It's made a lot more sense to all of us who play that the House/Hotel stack.


Mike, if you follow up with Hasbro, let us know the outcome. I'm actually a bit disappointed by these answers.
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J Holmes
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You'd also think if it was the intention for players to collect the rent only from the hotel they'd have put that in rules and examples.

zombie
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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My thoughts pretty much agree with BTs.

If a house has to be transferred to another player along with the set it is attached to, it remains with the set. But when a player has to (or wants to) pay another player using a house without the whole of the set that t is currently attached to, it goes to another player as cash into their bank, rather than being transferred as a property. The reasoning being, it's clearly not a property, it *is* marked with a cash value like every other action card, and treating it in this way avoids any troubling situations that might arise if the other player has no sets to transfer it onto. I *really* don't get Hasbro's official answer suggesting that the receiving player sets it aside until they have a complete set of properties to transfer it onto.
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byronczimmer wrote:
Rygel wrote:
No. Rents are not cumulative.


I disagree.

The house stays in play when the hotel is played, and there is nothing in the rules stating that you stop collecting the house when you place the hotel.

OTHERWISE, it's more beneficial to play the hotel as CASH every single time - the difference between the house and hotel is a mere $1.

As such, I believe (and the way we play) is that if a property set is complete with house AND hotel, that you are charging +$7 over the full property set value.

That's wrong and also not thought through.
a) The hotel gives you 4M cash, one time. It might be even worth less, because you don't get change when paying rent. But more or less, you gain the 4M cash relative to the other players.

b) Now assume you played the hotel and charge rent from 3 other players in a typical 4-player game. You will get a total of 3M more than with just the house. But because you don't get it from the bank but from the other players, you get a relative advantage of 4M (3+1) compared to each player. So when charging rent once in a 4-player game you get the same advantage of a built hotel than of a discarded one.
But, it's still better, because you drained the money pile of the other players, and maybe someone is forced to give you a higher money card (the opposite effect of what might happen to the hotel card in your money pile) or even property.
And now think of double rent(8M advantage) or even a second rent card (another 4M + money drain/possible property).

Of course a hotel needs a full set and a house, but that is not hard to get. And since you can move houses from set to set, it's even less difficult to charge for a hotel multiple time.
So, with all the factors working together the 1M difference will outweigh the one time 4M payment fast.

Even in the worst case, you will get the same monetary benefit in a 4-player game for discarding or building, but with building you also drain the other players money piles. A hotel is worth less in games with less players, but it's even more important with more players.

But there is of course a downside... someone might steal the hotel from you.

It might be debatable if the hotel shouldn't be worth 5M combined with the house, but 7M is definitely too much and overpowers the card.
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Topper Harley wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
Rygel wrote:
No. Rents are not cumulative.


I disagree.

The house stays in play when the hotel is played, and there is nothing in the rules stating that you stop collecting the house when you place the hotel.

OTHERWISE, it's more beneficial to play the hotel as CASH every single time - the difference between the house and hotel is a mere $1.

As such, I believe (and the way we play) is that if a property set is complete with house AND hotel, that you are charging +$7 over the full property set value.


... And since you can move houses from set to set, it's even less difficult to charge for a hotel multiple time...


At the time I wrote what you quoted, it was before the FAQ was published and three different play groups independently came to the conclusion that a house on a set that was forced to be broken was discarded. Getting a house/hotel on a set was a major accomplishment, one we felt should be rewarded.

The 'clarifications' from Hasbro concerning this game have simply not jived with the rules as written on many counts. Further, any 'normal player' (aka, those who would pick this up at Walmart or Target) have a very low probability of knowing about BGG or checking for a FAQ online. For those reasons, I will generally reject the FAQ when it directly contradicts the rules in the package.

No where do the rules indicate that a house is transferable between completed sets. That interpretation is pretty out there, especially given the pedigree of this game.

Everyone I play with likes having a house+hotel be +7, and everyone I play with likes houses/hotels to be attached to a single set and believes that they should be discarded if the set is broken.

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byronczimmer wrote:

At the time I wrote what you quoted, it was before the FAQ was published and three different play groups independently came to the conclusion that a house on a set that was forced to be broken was discarded. Getting a house/hotel on a set was a major accomplishment, one we felt should be rewarded.

The 'clarifications' from Hasbro concerning this game have simply not jived with the rules as written on many counts. Further, any 'normal player' (aka, those who would pick this up at Walmart or Target) have a very low probability of knowing about BGG or checking for a FAQ online. For those reasons, I will generally reject the FAQ when it directly contradicts the rules in the package.

No where do the rules indicate that a house is transferable between completed sets. That interpretation is pretty out there, especially given the pedigree of this game.

Everyone I play with likes having a house+hotel be +7, and everyone I play with likes houses/hotels to be attached to a single set and believes that they should be discarded if the set is broken.


Well, i wasn't targeting the question whether a house/hotel on a broken set has to be discarded or not. I was simply calculating the benefits of playing a hotel or using it as money, where you said that it's not worth playing the hotel because of the mere 1M gain in rent.
Quote:
It also doesn't parse that a Hotel card bumps the rent only an additional +1. The card is worth 4M if you bank it, and unless you can charge rent twice due to the hotel, won't generate more income than that from other players.

This is were your math was wrong.

Sure, i won't even want to argue about the rule to be able to move houses/hotels, because moving the house/hotel seems counter intuitive to the board game. Also, there are differences in the English and German rules, so i don't know what's in there.
Yet, in the board game the hotel replaces the house, so it is not surprising that Hasbro says "Like in the board game" in an answer to this question.
But even without this rule (moving the house/hotel) the hotel is powerful even when raising the rent only by 4M, like i explained.
 
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House and Hotel are on the bottom right of this picture:

House: Add onto any full set you own to add $3 to the rent value. (except railroads and utilities)
Hotel: Add onto any full set you own to add $4 to the rent value. (except railroads and utilities)

The rules further clarify that Hotels need to be built on sets with Houses, but don't say that the card replaces the House. There is no rule that states you may only apply a House OR Hotel to a complete set (until an 'official response forbade it). You can apply both 'Double the Rent' cards to a single rent request. A lay-reader of the rules would come to the conclusion that you use both the House and Hotel adders when charging rent.

Ergo: A set can have a House AND a Hotel on it. Following the cards, when you charge a rent, you charge for the Set, House and Hotel.

The rules also don't indicate that these cards can be moved around. There are rules to move Property Wild Cards around on your turn, but not rules for moving anything else around. Recent indications to the contrary (again as 'official responses from Hasbro') are upsetting and really change the flavor of the game and castrate two cards (the Deal Breakers) for no good reason.

Hasbro's answers to 'FAQs' (which are really single gamers asking questions in an attempt to make this title more than it is) have repeatedly messed up this game with 'official clarifications', most likely because of the way the questions were worded. Unfortunately, because this is a commercial game, there is no single designer to ask and get an opinion from.

At this point, Monopoly Deal is much like its parent in terms of pedigree. If I sit down to play this game with strangers, I will not know what ruleset everyone else is playing by because of all these 'official responses' and game changing 'revelations'.

It's unfortunate, it's a great game but the rules as written and the 'clarifications' from Hasbro have yet to mesh in any coherent and consistant manner.

There are some crazy killer combos in this game. That's okay.

And it's why our group plays that if you manage to maintain a House+Hotel combo AND can get the rent card for that set - more power to you.

Maybe the answer is to write a set of 'technical rules'.
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Well, i won't argue that the rules are bad, they are.

I also don't like to have to figure out rules with arguments like "The rules don't say that you can't do this or that".

Maybe Hasbro will learn from it. You have to admit that they don't have so much experience with good games.devil
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Stephen S
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I too have had this question come up.

My family LOVES Monopoly Deal. Very addicting. Its our favortie game to play now.

It does seem that +7M would be too much to add to the rent, esp in a "short" game as MD, most would not be able to stock up enough cash to be able to pay that much at once.

We've also questioned what to do when you have to pay rent and have to break a property set up that has a house/hotel on it, what to do with the house/hotel that is no longer valid. If it stays with the set but cant be charged until you get the full set, you could obtain the right color or wild card later and then still have it but in reality, a house/hotel cant sit on invisible land so technically you couldnt use it and it would probably need to be discarded.

I agree 100% that the rules are not very clear for the trickier situations.
 
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Gary Heidenreich
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byronczimmer wrote:
House and Hotel are on the bottom right of this picture:

House: Add onto any full set you own to add $3 to the rent value. (except railroads and utilities)
Hotel: Add onto any full set you own to add $4 to the rent value. (except railroads and utilities)

The rules further clarify that Hotels need to be built on sets with Houses, but don't say that the card replaces the House. There is no rule that states you may only apply a House OR Hotel to a complete set (until an 'official response forbade it). You can apply both 'Double the Rent' cards to a single rent request. A lay-reader of the rules would come to the conclusion that you use both the House and Hotel adders when charging rent.

Ergo: A set can have a House AND a Hotel on it. Following the cards, when you charge a rent, you charge for the Set, House and Hotel.

The rules also don't indicate that these cards can be moved around. There are rules to move Property Wild Cards around on your turn, but not rules for moving anything else around. Recent indications to the contrary (again as 'official responses from Hasbro') are upsetting and really change the flavor of the game and castrate two cards (the Deal Breakers) for no good reason.

Hasbro's answers to 'FAQs' (which are really single gamers asking questions in an attempt to make this title more than it is) have repeatedly messed up this game with 'official clarifications', most likely because of the way the questions were worded. Unfortunately, because this is a commercial game, there is no single designer to ask and get an opinion from.

At this point, Monopoly Deal is much like its parent in terms of pedigree. If I sit down to play this game with strangers, I will not know what ruleset everyone else is playing by because of all these 'official responses' and game changing 'revelations'.

It's unfortunate, it's a great game but the rules as written and the 'clarifications' from Hasbro have yet to mesh in any coherent and consistant manner.

There are some crazy killer combos in this game. That's okay.

And it's why our group plays that if you manage to maintain a House+Hotel combo AND can get the rent card for that set - more power to you.

Maybe the answer is to write a set of 'technical rules'.


I'm still with you on this. I *just* played a game of regular Monopoly abuot a week or so ago, with all of the normal rules. I tell you what, if you were lucky to get to the hotel phase in that game, you were doing quite well. It was a brutal, scraping for cash, morgaging flipping game.

To me it would make sense (as well as what the cards say) that you get the big pay out if you are lucky enough to have hotels.

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Stephen S
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Quote:

I'm still with you on this. I *just* played a game of regular Monopoly about a week or so ago, with all of the normal rules. I tell you what, if you were lucky to get to the hotel phase in that game, you were doing quite well. It was a brutal, scraping for cash, mortgaging flipping game.

To me it would make sense (as well as what the cards say) that you get the big pay out if you are lucky enough to have hotels.



The problem with that analogy is that in real Monopoly, hotels take time and money to obtain and its NO easy feat, but in Monopoly Deal its just a card and has an equal chance for ANYONE to draw it, so it really should not have such a devastating +7M rent value value, as many want to make it out to be.

+4 is still good and will still hurt many, esp if you can play it with a double the rent card


I think MANY folks are missing the whole point of MD and confusing it with real Monopoly.

In real Monopoly, the goal is to BANKRUPT all others, so MONEY is the focus; but in Monopoly Deal, the goal is to be the 1st (FASTEST) to obtain 3 color sets, so the focus is the Properties NOT the money.

I see my son play M.Deal and he is always greedy/devious and focuses on getting the most money but he ends up losing many times because he spends valuable time trying to wreak havoc on us by charging lots of rent. Yes that will make you have to give up your properties to them later if you have no cash left after a big rent is due, but still, its a totally DIFFERENT concept and so I think thats why so many are upset.
If he focuses on getting 3 colors as FAST as possible, he would win more often.

The two games really CANT be played the same.way because the goals are NOT the same.

MD is for a quick "taste" of Monopoly when you dont have 4-6 hrs to waste to play the real one with ALL the crazy rule sets

Just some food for thought.

What do you think? What strategy do you use? Charge high rent and then take property, or mad dash to get the properties ASAP?


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Monopoly Deal is modified Gin Rummy with some ways to move cards around.
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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In "real" Monopoly you get a hotel by building one on a set that already has houses, but the houses go away.

Is the answer to the +1/+4 hotel to say (as per the rules) that it can only be built on a set that already has a house, but then (fresh interpretation) the house card can be moved onto another set or placed in the player's cash pile?
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RDewsbery wrote:
In "real" Monopoly you get a hotel by building one on a set that already has houses, but the houses go away.

Is the answer to the +1/+4 hotel to say (as per the rules) that it can only be built on a set that already has a house, but then (fresh interpretation) the house card can be moved onto another set or placed in the player's cash pile?

No, you put the hotel on top of the house card. You can't remove the house once the hotel is built.

Here are some basic concepts of this game (at least this is how i understand it and it seems to comply the the hasbro faq).
- You play a card either in your property display or discard it as money.
- You never move any card from the property display to the money pile or the other way around
- You can use everything in your property display as payment which then goes to the property display of the other player. (This includes houses and hotels.)
- You can arrange your property display in any way you like.
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Richard Dewsbery
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Topper Harley wrote:

No, you put the hotel on top of the house card. You can't remove the house once the hotel is built.


The cards and rules seem to suggest one interpretation, the FAQ seems to suggest another; and in my group I think that we'll be playing hotels onto sets that already have houses, then move (or turn into cash) the house card (i) because it avoids any arguments about whether you get +1 money on rent or +4, and (ii) because it means that hotels have a decent, but not crippling return for the effort involved, and (iii) [this is the really important justification] because it plays more like the parent boardgame that way, and consistency across the two games will help people to pick the game up easier.

And bugger what the rules/card/FAQ is *supposed* to mean.
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Stephen S
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Obviously in reality, a lot with a housing track on it, must be cleared first to build a hotel on it.

Just like in real Monopoly,when you get the Hotel, you give back the 4 houses.

Perhaps they wanted you to keep the "status" of the Hotel on your set so there would be no confusion that your group value was at the 5th level (3 colors + 1 hour and 1 hotel = 5) but who knows what they thought.

I also have a question into Hasbro on the rule clarification for paying rent using the hotel as payment and what happens to it on the receivers side of the board.

Stay tuned..
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Its sad that the rules of this game are so poorly defined.

I don't know where people get the idea that they can play two double rents at once. The double rent card clearly states it is to be played with a rent card, not with a double rent card. And the double rent card doubles the rent, it does not double the doubled rent.
 
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myforwik wrote:
Its sad that the rules of this game are so poorly defined.

I don't know where people get the idea that they can play two double rents at once. The double rent card clearly states it is to be played with a rent card, not with a double rent card. And the double rent card doubles the rent, it does not double the doubled rent.

The double rent card doubles the rent. The doubled rent is the new rent. I don't see a problem doubling it twice.
 
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Stephen S
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We allow 2 double rents in our game.
This means you have used all 3 turns available on one shot (Rent + Double + Double)

Its devastating for sure

Topper Harley wrote:
myforwik wrote:
Its sad that the rules of this game are so poorly defined.

I don't know where people get the idea that they can play two double rents at once. The double rent card clearly states it is to be played with a rent card, not with a double rent card. And the double rent card doubles the rent, it does not double the doubled rent.

The double rent card doubles the rent. The doubled rent is the new rent. I don't see a problem doubling it twice.
 
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