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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
I call BS.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
Nicely put and makes sense, though it could be argued if we go into the "details" whistle
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
Baroness Karen von Blixen-Finecke (17 April 1885 – 7 September 1962), née Karen Christenze Dinesen, was a Danish author also known under her pen name Isak Dinesen. Blixen wrote works both in Danish and in English. She is best known, at least in English, for Out of Africa, her account of living in Kenya, and one of her stories, Babette's Feast, both of which have been adapted into highly acclaimed motion pictures. In Denmark she is best known for her works Out of Africa (Danish: Den afrikanske Farm) and Seven Gothic Tales (Danish: Syv fantastiske Fortællinger).
...
[ Her father ] Wilhelm Dinesen hanged himself in 1895 when Karen was nine because he was diagnosed with syphilis.

In 1913 Karen Dinesen became engaged to her second-cousin, the Swedish Baron Bror von Blixen-Finecke, after a failed love affair with his brother. The couple moved to Kenya, where in early 1914 they used family money to establish a coffee plantation, hiring African workers, predominantly the Kikuyu tribespeople who lived on the farmlands at the time of their arrival. About the couple's early life in Africa, Karen Blixen later wrote, "Here at long last one was in a position not to give a damn for all conventions, here was a new kind of freedom which until then one had only found in dreams!"

The two were quite different in education and temperament, and Bror Blixen was unfaithful to his wife. She was diagnosed with syphilis toward the end of their first year of marriage, which although eventually cured (some uncertainty exists), created medical anguish for years afterwards. The Blixens separated in 1921 and were divorced in 1925.

I think this has to be put into the historical, social, and personal context of the author. While the historical period isn't as male-dominated as some earlier periods, the teens led into the roaring twenties, a rather libertine time. Her upbringing seems rather bohemian. Personally, she seemed to live in a rather bohemian manner, and early life could not help but have an impact on her values.

On the quote itself, I think attributing this or that behavior to all men or all women is unwarranted. While personality types are gender-biased, they are not gender-determined.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
You lost me at "God".

Also, I take anything written around the 1930s with a grain of salt, both for offhand sexist comments and racist ones.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
I still don't get why you wouldn't click on the thread I wrote with the picture of the little girl with the parakeet on her head. I thought it was cute.
 
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
EgorjLileli wrote:
KSensei wrote:
I still don't get why you wouldn't click on the thread I wrote with the picture of the little girl with the parakeet on her head. I thought it was cute.
I did click on it Jamie!! I didn't like it--it creeped me out!! Sorry!!


Oh, ok then. But who is Jamie?
 
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
EgorjLileli wrote:
I also have a hard time accepting generalizations nowadays. However, perhaps it was MORE true back then???

Taken in context it feels true even though it is an unfair criticism of men--and/or an accusation of them being shallow/fickle.

I think gender stereotypes were taken more seriously then: the ditsy flapper, the playboy. I don't think that makes the stereotypes themselves true. Think of a flapper, partying away in 1929, but in 1942, going to work building munitions for WWII.

The context of men and women talking naturally--this is something that bugs me, personally. Women are supposed to be bubbly and cheerful, men are supposed to be gallant and macho: if we play these roles, what do we actually learn about each other? Nothing. Sure, let's start a relationship by insulting each others' intelligence. I agree that it's much more common for men to talk to men and women to talk to women more forthrightly.

I don't know about it being an accusation--maybe more of a rationalization? "Man is a rationalizing animal."
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
EgorjLileli wrote:
AT 22 wrote:
Nicely put and makes sense, though it could be argued if we go into the "details" whistle


Thanks AT, I'd love to hear your "details" please!


I think that the paragraph is pretty much accurate if we're talking about a quickie, but not quite if we're talking about "love".

Over the course of "love", the man also gets to be the "host" of the woman, not quite in the same way but host nonetheless. So, at some point a man also has to think about the host/guest relationship from the same perspective as a woman.

I hope that makes sense as is, didn't want to have the thread RSP'd
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
MMB, come to RSP!

The water is warm. Scalding really.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
EgorjLileli wrote:
Do you not feel there could be/is value to older literature?
Oh, yes, I value old literature, but, again, I try to read past the socioreligious language and find the gist of the author's argument. As I see it, this author is saying that women serve men and that's the way it's always been, so you better get used to it.

I consider the premise, and therefore the conclusion, to be false.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
I find it to be an artless analogy that speaks more of the writer and the time it was written in than of the human state.

Reprint wrote:
I consider the premise, and therefore the conclusion, to be false.
Check your logic. False premises can yield true conclusions:
All Cows are Chickens
Some Chickens go "Moo!"
therefore, some Cows go "Moo!"
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???

"The Roads Round Pisa" from Seven Gothic Tales, Isak Dinesen. Published in 1934:

The part of a guest is different from that of a host or hostess, and people do not want or expect the same things in the two different capacities. Now God, when he created Adam and Eve arranged it so that man takes, in these matters, the part of a guest, and woman that of a hostess. Therefore man takes love lightly, for the honor and dignity of his house is not involved therein. And you can also, surely be a guest to many people to whom you would never want to be a host.
EgorjLileli wrote:
Thank you Walt for the back-story and history. It does give a slightly different flavor to the quote.

I want to add that this is "spoken" by a female character who is dressed as a man and mistaken for a man by the male protagonist of the story. The protagonist, (lets the reader know) that he is amazed that he can converse with a female in the same manner that he can speak with a man--something that had never happened to him before!!

I also have a hard time accepting generalizations nowadays. However, perhaps it was MORE true back then???

Taken in context it feels true even though it is an unfair criticism of men--and/or an accusation of them being shallow/fickle.

Thanks for the extra background. The terminology is indeed redolent of the privileged classes.

I think it's a broad generalisation that would have been accepted by many at the time - in that social context - though the allusions it makes to sexual roles would likely be considered shocking coming from one of 'the fairer sex'. Perhaps more than fickleness, I would say it's a criticism of men's lack of discernment when being attracted to women, who are presented as holding to higher standards.

I don't agree it's a universal truth, but you could argue it as a fairly accurate description of adolesecent mating behaviour (at least when I was of an age to frequent pubs, clubs & discos).

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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
The overall comment, about guests, hosts, expectations (and the analogy with love) is insightful. The attempt to assign men and women fixed roles within the analogy is a steaming load of BS, to echo MM.

As an aside, reading "cannonical" literature is not like taking your vitamins. The reader cannot be passive and expect it to be "good for them." Laughable assumptions and repugnant values are going to crop up, and usually that's not a good enough reason to stop reading.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
EgorjLileli wrote:
Guy #1: Boy, she's hot!
Guy #2: Who, (Girl's name)? Yeah, she is.
Guy #1: I wouldn't mind climbing that tree.
Guy #2: Nah........too used.

So, even adolescent males can be discerning and not just out of control hormonal animals!!


gulp

Discerning? They're both insecure and envious. Guy #1 feels better imagining he has a chance. Guy #2 feels better by putting her down as not good enough, as if he'll ever have the opportunity to actually turn her down. They both want to look cool. I give guy #1 points for honesty, even if he tries to save face by making a sport out of it. Guy #2 sounds scared shitless. He certainly doesn't have any mature concerns about STDs or commitment.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
They sound like fairly typical 15 year-olds. I'm not saying that they'll grow up to be terrible people, or that lots of other 15 year olds have figured out sex and girls. They haven't. A lot of the ones who "respect" women at that age are late-bloomers who will take a while to learn how to approach and interact with women, whereas these guys will probably get there faster (and eventually drop these BS routines). Still, my money says Guy #2 has the lowest odds of growing up. Putting down hot and sexually active women in order to boost your self-esteem can lead to some ugly behavior as an adult.

Sorry to be so serious. That "too used" comment kind of goads me.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
Jack, that was exactly my take on the two young cretins men as well. #2 is displaying the ultimate sour grapes, as if he would even have a chance with the girl in question. There's also the typical double standard, that any sexually active girl is automatically a slut (but of course, it's fine for a boy of the same age). A lot of this is the sort of posturing and bravado guys that age often show, but the attitudes are still disturbing and can easily lead to sexist behavior when the boy becomes a man.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
CrankyPants wrote:
Check your logic. False premises can yield true conclusions:
All Cows are Chickens
Some Chickens go "Moo!"
therefore, some Cows go "Moo!"

Back at ya:
All men are humans.
Some humans give birth
Therefore some men give birth. . . bzzt!

I think that's the fallacy of the undistributed middle.

Surely, we can bodge together something that looks like logic and comes up with a true result, but that doesn't mean we've proven the result:
All chickens are cows
Some cows lay eggs
Therefore some chickens lay eggs.
Bad premises, bad logic, with a correct conclusion just to confuse the issue.

Unfortunately, formal logic rarely applies to human society.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
JohnRayJr wrote:
EgorjLileli wrote:
Guy #1: Boy, she's hot!
Guy #2: Who, (Girl's name)? Yeah, she is.
Guy #1: I wouldn't mind climbing that tree.
Guy #2: Nah........too used.

So, even adolescent males can be discerning and not just out of control hormonal animals!!

Guy #2 sounds scared shitless. He certainly doesn't have any mature concerns about STDs or commitment.

Alternate interpretation: Guy #2 is expressing concern about STDs.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
Larry Levy wrote:
There's also the typical double standard, that any sexually active girl is automatically a slut (but of course, it's fine for a boy of the same age).


I think the quote is referencing this aspect as well. Women, then and now, cannot take sex as lightly as men do because it is socially frowned upon and their 'honor and dignity' would be marred. Men are freer to express that aspect of themselves and the 'sowing of wild oats' is a rite of passage for them without any social denigration.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
Tall_Walt wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
EgorjLileli wrote:
Guy #1: Boy, she's hot!
Guy #2: Who, (Girl's name)? Yeah, she is.
Guy #1: I wouldn't mind climbing that tree.
Guy #2: Nah........too used.

So, even adolescent males can be discerning and not just out of control hormonal animals!!

Guy #2 sounds scared shitless. He certainly doesn't have any mature concerns about STDs or commitment.

Alternate interpretation: Guy #2 is expressing concern about STDs.


If so, he's still getting off on putting her down. "Used" is an ugly word for sex, and it shows pretty clearly that this guy thinks women owe it him to abstain so that their bodies aren't worn out when he finally gets a chance. That gets my blood up.

If his friend had a real shot, he'd advise him to be careful. If his friend doesn't (overwhelmingly likely from this dialogue), he'd play along. But in this example, he's upping the ante: yes, she's hot, but she's beneath him.

Again, I'm not trying to demonize teenage boys, and I know I don't have the final word on this reported exchange between two people I've never met. Now back to MMB's lit topic.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
NishaDS wrote:
Larry Levy wrote:
There's also the typical double standard, that any sexually active girl is automatically a slut (but of course, it's fine for a boy of the same age).

I think the quote is referencing this aspect as well. Women, then and now, cannot take sex as lightly as men do because it is socially frowned upon and their 'honor and dignity' would be marred. Men are freer to express that aspect of themselves and the 'sowing of wild oats' is a rite of passage for them without any social denigration.

But that's because for much of recorded history, men have set the rules. Quotes like that one are merely self-serving. Or, if they are from women (as this one is), they represent a way of rationalizing an inherantly unfair system. I'm not sure the fact that the author is a woman is particularly significant. When you've been raised in a society where such beliefs are widespread, it isn't surprising that members of the oppressed group accept this "wisdom" as well (and try to find ways to use it to their advantage).
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
Women never get my jokes.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
Larry Levy wrote:

But that's because for much of recorded history, men have set the rules. Quotes like that one are merely self-serving. Or, if they are from women (as this one is), they represent a way of rationalizing an inherantly unfair system. I'm not sure the fact that the author is a woman is particularly significant. When you've been raised in a society where such beliefs are widespread, it isn't surprising that members of the oppressed group accept this "wisdom" as well (and try to find ways to use it to their advantage).


Agreed. Men may have made the rules but it is often women who continue to perpetuate the lies because they don't know anything better.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
EgorjLileli wrote:

I'd add that they were also powerless to implement any changes, even when they wanted to or developed them!!

I think many couldn't see any other way and accepted their lot. I think others, like the authoress, were able to live a different type of life and see a better way. Because they couldn't effect any major change, they tried to utilize or manipulate the existing system to their advantage.


Absolutely. Reclaiming power by subverting the 'rules' is often the only way to make the best of a bad situation.
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Re: Literally Speaking #2 - Gender differences???
Larry Levy wrote:
But that's because for much of recorded history, men have set the rules.

And much of pre-history, which is a lot longer.
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