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Subject: Start world question rss

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David Low
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According to the rule:

"Start world setup (rules change): after setting out the goals to use, separate the start worlds by their blue and red (even/odd) start numbers into two groups. Shuffle each group separately. Deal two start worlds, one from each group, to every player. Shuffle any remaining start worlds with the game cards and then deal six cards to each player. Each player, after studying all eight cards, discards one of his two dealt start worlds and two of his six game cards. Players then simultaneously reveal their selected start worlds and begin play. "

In a 3 player game, there are multiple start worlds that are then added back into the deck. Its possible that in the 6 card draw that you can draw another start world into your hand, thus giving you 3 start worlds. Can you choose that one or must you choose one of the 2 originally dealt to you?

Though it looks like the rules are written to be the opposite direction, its seems to work better this way.

-dave
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Eric Jome
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We've adopted a practice of specifically not shuffling starting worlds into the deck before dealing the starting hand to each player. We felt that, if you did, and a person was dealt a third starting world, it would be too confusing to be sure they picked only from their original two.

It's a pretty trivial change, but I think a technically useful one.
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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dlow95110 wrote:
Its possible that in the 6 card draw that you can draw another start world into your hand, thus giving you 3 start worlds. Can you choose that one or must you choose one of the 2 originally dealt to you?


You must choose one of the 2 originally dealt to you.

I once had a game with three start worlds in my six cards!
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dlow95110 wrote:
According to the rule:

"Start world setup (rules change): after setting out the goals to use, separate the start worlds by their blue and red (even/odd) start numbers into two groups. Shuffle each group separately. Deal two start worlds, one from each group, to every player. Shuffle any remaining start worlds with the game cards and then deal six cards to each player. Each player, after studying all eight cards, discards one of his two dealt start worlds and two of his six game cards. Players then simultaneously reveal their selected start worlds and begin play. "

In a 3 player game, there are multiple start worlds that are then added back into the deck. Its possible that in the 6 card draw that you can draw another start world into your hand, thus giving you 3 start worlds. Can you choose that one or must you choose one of the 2 originally dealt to you?

Though it looks like the rules are written to be the opposite direction, its seems to work better this way.

-dave
Typically in my groups and for myself, this isn't a concern. Well, I will be forthright and say upfront that when playing a game with less than 6p, we typically forget to shuffle the undealt homeworlds back into the deck. Even if we did do this correctly, I'm confident that it woulnd't be an issue anyways. This is due to in part when players are going through the base action for explore, AFAIK they've been good about not accidentally discarding a card from their hands instead of one of the 2 cards they looked at from the Explore phase. This was pre-exp #2 before the combine power was available.
 
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cosine wrote:
We've adopted a practice of specifically not shuffling starting worlds into the deck before dealing the starting hand to each player. We felt that, if you did, and a person was dealt a third starting world, it would be too confusing to be sure they picked only from their original two.

It's a pretty trivial change, but I think a technically useful one.


Strange house-rule. Does your group also play with mixed explore always on, because otherwise people could get confused with which cards they just drew and which they already had?

If not, why the house rule for starting worlds? It's only 6 cards to keep track of.

I'm not ribbing here, just genuinely curious.

By the way, I really really like the 'deal 2, choose one' rule described by the OP. Actually, I just really like what RvI did for Race for the Galaxy.
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Eric Jome
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Stormparkiet wrote:
Strange house-rule. Does your group also play with mixed explore always on, because otherwise people could get confused with which cards they just drew and which they already had?


Proper etiquette for Explore is to set down your hand and perform the Explore while your cards are on the table. You should not pick up your normal hand while handling your Explore cards. This is the normal practice in board games for this sort of thing.

And, we play very fast. Very, very fast. I imagine strangers playing with us would find our play speed very annoying. To maintain this high speed play, it helps to develop a series of practices that help maintain it. One of them is very clearly handling your cards so that they do not become mixed up.

Quote:
If not, why the house rule for starting worlds? It's only 6 cards to keep track of.


I am infamous for insisting that gamers will not cheat, but if you prefer to think of it as cheating prevention, then think about it that way. We, the other players, will not see your cards and cannot verify what you have been dealt. Therefore, if you mix the cards, you run the risk of invalidating the game, either by making a mistake or intentionally breaking the rules.

To play in a manner that conforms to the rules, we would insist in the same practice that we use for Explore used for your hand of starting worlds and your hand of starting cards; you must never have both hands of cards in your hands at the same time to avoid inappropriate intermixing. They must be clearly separate if set down on the table.

Quote:
I'm not ribbing here, just genuinely curious.


Yeah. Right.
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Chris J Davis
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cosine wrote:
Stormparkiet wrote:
Strange house-rule. Does your group also play with mixed explore always on, because otherwise people could get confused with which cards they just drew and which they already had?


Proper etiquette for Explore is to set down your hand and perform the Explore while your cards are on the table. You should not pick up your normal hand while handling your Explore cards. This is the normal practice in board games for this sort of thing.


[/q]

Ooo, god no. Maybe if you've played 100s + 100s of games, but some of us still need to compare what we drew in the Explore to what we currently hold in our hands. Having to choose from 8+ cards based on memory is for experts only.
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Everett Scheer
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bleached_lizard wrote:
cosine wrote:
Stormparkiet wrote:
Strange house-rule. Does your group also play with mixed explore always on, because otherwise people could get confused with which cards they just drew and which they already had?


Proper etiquette for Explore is to set down your hand and perform the Explore while your cards are on the table. You should not pick up your normal hand while handling your Explore cards. This is the normal practice in board games for this sort of thing.




Ooo, god no. Maybe if you've played 100s + 100s of games, but some of us still need to compare what we drew in the Explore to what we currently hold in our hands. Having to choose from 8+ cards based on memory is for experts only.


Is it really that hard to choose the best one form 8 without consulting your hand? It really shouldn't be more than 2-3 cards you are considering. I'm fine with setting down the explored set and picking up your actual hand if necesary, but that rarely is.

Edit: wierd quote tag needed to be fixed
 
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Everett Scheer
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cosine wrote:
We've adopted a practice of specifically not shuffling starting worlds into the deck before dealing the starting hand to each player. We felt that, if you did, and a person was dealt a third starting world, it would be too confusing to be sure they picked only from their original two.

It's a pretty trivial change, but I think a technically useful one.


meh, you can do it like explores. Keep the 2 homeworlds in one stack, your starting 6 cards in another. I see no problem with it this way, and it removes the chance of having a second start world in your opening hand. IMO its a change for the worse.
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Eric Jome
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Having to choose from 8+ cards based on memory is for experts only.


It's really not that hard. If you have to, switch back and forth, putting one down and picking the other up.
 
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Eric Jome
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Elgar wrote:
It removes the chance of having a second start world in your opening hand. IMO its a change for the worse.


Meh... you really think the starting worlds are that good that you want a chance to draw one of them? To me, mixing in the unused starting worlds before initial hands seems like an unneeded gimmick... do you really think it adds anything?

The starting worlds are generally poor. I very likely would not choose to play one if it came to me in the middle of the game. Maybe to hit a goal or fill out a development...
 
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Everett Scheer
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cosine wrote:
Elgar wrote:
It removes the chance of having a second start world in your opening hand. IMO its a change for the worse.


Meh... you really think the starting worlds are that good that you want a chance to draw one of them? To me, mixing in the unused starting worlds before initial hands seems like an unneeded gimmick... do you really think it adds anything?

The starting worlds are generally poor. I very likely would not choose to play one if it came to me in the middle of the game. Maybe to hit a goal or fill out a development...


Answering questions/comments in order:
I think that the start worlds are worthy enough to be drawn in the first hand. Why not remove other cards that aren't good for opening hands as well? remove gambling world and teraformed world since no one wants to see these in their opening hand.

I don't see how including them is a gimmick. Choosing to not have certain cards not be available in initial hand, but available in the rest of the deck is more of a gimmick.

Including the start worlds do add something. The value of that something may be up for debate. They do add (based on the number of players) a non negligible amount of cheaper worlds to the deck. Removing them changes this ratio, especially if you consider 2 player games (which you don't play a lot of, I know)

Really, you think the starting worlds are generally poor? Most of them are cheap, but are on par if not better than others that cost the same. EE is probably the only one I wouldn't play, but then again I'm not a fan of EE as a start world either.

ELC is easily a good one to have. NS is the only low defense world with +2 military, and therefore can ramp up the military quickly. SC has the nice explore power (whihc is good for military so the extra miltary is sweet as well). AC and AR are cheap windfalls, great for S/T. DW is just a cheaper (but harder to use) colony ship. DAF is the cheapest alien production world, on par with Hive World. OE is tricky, but is one of the better late game start world plays as it can turn a good flooded tableua into a point powerhouse. It's one of very few worlds that can consume 2 goods (and it can still be used to consume 1 as well) I haven't played much with the RvI worlds, but I think all but the "loserlords" have definite advantages to playing as not your start world.
 
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cosine wrote:
Stormparkiet wrote:
Strange house-rule. Does your group also play with mixed explore always on, because otherwise people could get confused with which cards they just drew and which they already had?


Proper etiquette for Explore is to set down your hand and perform the Explore while your cards are on the table. You should not pick up your normal hand while handling your Explore cards. This is the normal practice in board games for this sort of thing.

And, we play very fast. Very, very fast. I imagine strangers playing with us would find our play speed very annoying. To maintain this high speed play, it helps to develop a series of practices that help maintain it. One of them is very clearly handling your cards so that they do not become mixed up.

Quote:
If not, why the house rule for starting worlds? It's only 6 cards to keep track of.


I am infamous for insisting that gamers will not cheat, but if you prefer to think of it as cheating prevention, then think about it that way. We, the other players, will not see your cards and cannot verify what you have been dealt. Therefore, if you mix the cards, you run the risk of invalidating the game, either by making a mistake or intentionally breaking the rules.

To play in a manner that conforms to the rules, we would insist in the same practice that we use for Explore used for your hand of starting worlds and your hand of starting cards; you must never have both hands of cards in your hands at the same time to avoid inappropriate intermixing. They must be clearly separate if set down on the table.

Quote:
I'm not ribbing here, just genuinely curious.


Yeah. Right.



bleached_lizard wrote:
cosine wrote:
Stormparkiet wrote:
Strange house-rule. Does your group also play with mixed explore always on, because otherwise people could get confused with which cards they just drew and which they already had?


Proper etiquette for Explore is to set down your hand and perform the Explore while your cards are on the table. You should not pick up your normal hand while handling your Explore cards. This is the normal practice in board games for this sort of thing.




Ooo, god no. Maybe if you've played 100s + 100s of games, but some of us still need to compare what we drew in the Explore to what we currently hold in our hands. Having to choose from 8+ cards based on memory is for experts only.[/q]



I'm giving folks the benefit of the doubt that they're discarding the cards they should be for the sake of making it easier to compare side by side and make the right decisions as to what to discard.

Every now and then, I see what players are up to, but honestly, I can't keep track of it all. If I notice a player is doing something wrong for better or for worse, I'll mention it.

There's only one person who some have suspected, and that came up when another player wondered how such a player built a 6-cost dev and a 5-cost world with only a Dev bonus and no Explore phase for that round. He was mistakened is all.
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cosine wrote:
Proper etiquette for Explore is to set down your hand and perform the Explore while your cards are on the table. You should not pick up your normal hand while handling your Explore cards. This is the normal practice in board games for this sort of thing.

So when I play this game with you, before I get to see my explore cards, I need to write down all the cards in my hand so I can refer to them while choosing which cards to keep. That will certainly be awkward, especially since I need to keep what I am writing secret from the the other players.
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No, from what I can see, in Eric's group you just need a method that is very unlikely to produce play mistakes when playing quickly. One method is picking up only one group at a time - you don't need to write your cards down, just put down your Explores and pick up your hand if you need to review. Another method, the one that I use, is to hold each set in separate hands. This works in most cases and is only really a problem when E+5ing to mixed-explore and fix your 8+ hand.
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cosine wrote:
Meh... you really think the starting worlds are that good that you want a chance to draw one of them?


If ELC is too poor to include in the deck, maybe you ought to remove Prosperous World too. ;)
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Well seeing as we're choosing which worlds not to include in the first deal, let's get rid of Artist colony, it's not even as good as Earth's Lost Colony.

And because Alpha Centauri isn't worth putting in, we'd better take out Asteroid Belt and Gem Smugglers.
 
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bluebehir wrote:
Well seeing as we're choosing which worlds not to include in the first deal...


Okay... just to be clear.

This is just something we've tried a few times. Specifically because of the new RvI rules - it would be a technical error to mix your starting worlds and your initial hand because that initial hand could contain worlds that were possible starting worlds.

As I said, proper practice according to the rules is to keep your hand of starting worlds strictly separate from your initial hand of cards. If this were a formal event with myself as the formal judge and a player accused you of mixing these two hands (or your Explore hand and play hand), that would be, in my mind, worth a reprimand - the opportunity for misplay or cheating is too high. Keep them separate.

Because this is annoying, we've tried out a system where you don't shuffle starting worlds back in before initial hands are dealt. They all go in after the initial hands are dealt. The point of this is only to avoid this possible misplay. I would not expect other people to try this variant... heck, I would not expect other people to even consider this an issue, as high level, precision play is something usually only worried about in serious competition.

But be aware that people could easily misplay or cheat if there are starting worlds in their initial hand of cards. So, do you have a solution for that? Or would you rather just let mistakes and cheating happen?
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Everett Scheer
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Cheating isn't an issue with me. If people are going to cheat, they are going to cheat whether you have this variant or not. And if they are going to cheat, my solution is to not play games with them.

Misplay is another, and maybe this is a bit tricky, but its only as tricky as explore. Changing the rules, the way the game is supposed to be played, just to avoid a (minor) chance at a misplay (a chance that also happens at other points of the game) seems excesive to me. It changes the probabilities of the opening hands.

I would rather play by the rules and have this (IMO small) chance that someone misplays, then to try to correct it by introducing a variant. To each is own though. If it works for you and your group, go ahead.
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Serge Levert
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cosine wrote:
But be aware that people could easily misplay or cheat if there are starting worlds in their initial hand of cards. So, do you have a solution for that?


I think it's a non-issue. Just do like explore, keep the 2 start worlds separate on the table. It would actually be harder in your playgroup's playstyle to cheat the start worlds, compared to cheating explores. A pile of 2 cards vs a pile of 6 cards. Whereas with explores, someone could more easily make an unnoticed complete switch of their hand and explore, if their handsize and explore size are similar.

Edit: in fact i think possibly the most cheat-proof method is Guy's (and my favored method), using two hands. Your left hand is always your actual hand, and your right hand is always your explore/start worlds. No intermingling allowed until the decision is made. Also nice because you don't need to memorize anything or constantly pick up and put down piles (which would enable full switch cheating).
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entranced wrote:
cosine wrote:
But be aware that people could easily misplay or cheat if there are starting worlds in their initial hand of cards. So, do you have a solution for that?


I think it's a non-issue. Just do like explore, keep the 2 start worlds separate on the table. It would actually be harder in your playgroup's playstyle to cheat the start worlds, compared to cheating explores. A pile of 2 cards vs a pile of 6 cards. Whereas with explores, someone could more easily make an unnoticed complete switch of their hand and explore, if their handsize and explore size are similar.

Edit: in fact i think possibly the most cheat-proof method is Guy's (and my favored method), using two hands. Your left hand is always your actual hand, and your right hand is always your explore/start worlds. No intermingling allowed until the decision is made. Also nice because you don't need to memorize anything or constantly pick up and put down piles (which would enable full switch cheating).
I heard of a situation similar to this at a convention for some other game. They let the guy combine his draws with his hand and gave him the benefit of the doubt. Apparently, the guy had some hand injury that made holding up cards in one hand difficult.
 
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We've always just put the explored cards into our hands and used this thing called "trust" to ensure that people weren't getting a free mix-and-match. Generally I've noticed that beginning players will put their hand aside and do the explore separately (I even teach the game that way), but for more advanced players often it can be a strong strategy point to know what is in your hand when you are deciding what to keep for the explore, so forcing the hands to be separate would just slow the game down unnecessarily.

I can see why you might want to do something differently in a tournament setting when cheating might be a real possibility... but there are so many ways to cheat (I can discard 4 cards to pay for a Settle and claim it was three; I can "accidentally" peek at my goods, etc.) that it seems weird to have an "etiquette" rule that specifically addresses this form of cheating.
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We've always used Eric's "variant," but only because I thought that was what the real rules said.

I suppose in the base set, too, you are supposed to shuffle the start worlds in before dealing the initial six hands? shake

A few hundred face to face games and I'm still not playing right. blush
 
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