Brian Bankler
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After reading the rules for Pegasus, How do you think the balance will shift? (Yes, we don't know all the new cards, so we're making a guess here).
Overwhelmingly Pro-Cylon
Significantly Pro-Cylon
Mildly Pro-Cylon
No Change
Mildly Pro-Human
Significantly Pro-Human
Overwhelmingly Pro-Human
      83 answers
Poll created by Bankler


Post your rationale below, if you like.
 
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Brian Bankler
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My rationale (in spoilers, so as not to impact the poll. No actual spoilers for the series...
Spoiler (click to reveal)

Pro-cylon tweaks:
1) Treachery cards in the destiny deck ... they are almost always negative and sometimes hose reckless play (I think).
2) Longer game (possibly). Usually you need 4 jumps to get to 8. If you get to 7 in 3 jumps (3.2.2 or 3.3.1) it could be faster, but if you take four jumps to get to N.C. then the game will definitely be longer.
3) It's likely you'll get a few civilian ships (and perhaps humans killed) leaving N.C. Ugh. Not to mention the ships the centurions nuke while waiting for the fleet to return.
5) I'm going to go ahead and call the "Take a second action instead of moving" pro cylon, as it lets them do a "Hose/reveal." turn. It also has a it's pro-human touches, but on balance ...
6) More card types mean cylons can plausibly claim to get a bad draw. And the green deck will have less XOs!
7) Free "Give away your spare cylon card" instead of having to use the resurrection ship. Usually it won't matter.
8) A sympathetic cylon leader instead of the sympathizer usually means you'll still be 3v1 and 4v2, but you probably can't trust them in any case. This is tough to judge.
9) I doubt investigative committee is being made stronger....

Pro-human:
1) Cylons can't ignore the jump symbol when using the Caprica action (that's pretty big).
2) Executing a cylon stops their super crisis, reveal power and nukes their hand.
3) You can always take hits on Pegasus. That's a few extra hits.
4) The other cylons will distrust the cylon leader with a sympathetic agenda....
5) No having to force something into red on those rare games when everything goes your way early.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Ouch - BGG ate my response, but basically I think that in 4 and 6 player the cylon leader will be a guaranteed human super-Roslin, unless the other "nice" agendas are a lot harder on the humans than the one we know, which is basically just "you are human". 5 player might have become even harder, as if it weren't hard enough already.

The whole personal agenda mechanic is REALLY hard to get right in any game and while I trust FF to make an interesting game, I don't trust them to manage to balance something that hard to balance. I'm fairly confident the player numbers will be badly comparatively imbalanced due to this (and also because FF thinks balance comes with equal differences of humans minus cylons, instead of equal ratios).

I'm not sure how balance will change overall. The second most significant change - jump advancement via Caprica, may push it towards the humans. The IC change could also be quite significant though.
 
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Chris Cieslik
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We are, of course, missing a significant piece of information. The content of the new crisis cards and the rest of the new destination cards will be a large factor.

Also, in your pro-human list you are missing the Pegasus engine room, and to a lesser degree their weapons control space. Guaranteeing a jump icon will be pretty powerful in the right circumstances.
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Peter Vrabel
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I'm going to go with a slight pro-human balance. The spaces in the Pegasus just look so powerful. Sure, the Cylons have new ways of getting basestars on the board, but it doesn't matter that much if two actions executive ordering someone in Pegasus CIC with two strategic planning cards will probably wipe it out. Admittedly, strategic planning cards will be rarer in the expansion, but it's still a good space. The other Pegasus attack space looks awesome as well, especially if you use it as soon as the raiders spawn, before they manage to get to where the humans are.

Mind you, we don't know that the numbers on the new skill checks will be. AFAIK, the only one we've seen is a 1 on a 'Jury Rigged' card. If all the new cards are 1 or 2, that could make skill checks significantly more difficult.
 
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Gary Laporte
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I absolutely have no idea if the balance will change (you should have this option "I have no idea"), but I have the feeling that the pace of the game will be much quicker with the new additions. Isn't a bad thing for me as we sometimes played for 5 hours and it was kind of lengthy.
 
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Andy Clautice
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Something else Pro-Cylon that wasn't mentioned: The ridiculous amount of power vested in the Admiral when Galactica returns to NC orbit. If I'm a Cylon with that title, I will play completely, unflinchingly human in every way right up until I can abandon all civilian ships and humans on the surface of the planet.
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Allan Clements
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Well I think people will need to Execute the Admiral before Galactica returns on new Caprica...
Really though, so long as you can evacuate at least a couple of ships before the admiral has his turn after Galactica returns then you won't auto-lose the game from jumping too early. If anything, the Admiral could simply keep the Admirality since the Detention center does not remove it, and just refuse to leave New Caprica...


From the looks of the Secret Agenda cards I really think it will be quite well balanced but it will favour the Cylons (at least in early games) because the humans will take longer to adapt to using the new stuff most efficiently. The "sympathetic" cylon objectives seem to require the Humans to win but with certain resources low, so the Cylon will probably need to fail some skill checks for the humans.

 
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Chris J Davis
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This is something else I'm a little bit "huh?" about: I thought the argument of the Cylon leaders sharing wins with one team or another would be that it would take a while for the humans and/or Cylons to figure out which side they shared a win with (i.e, it would take a while to trust them completely). If the agendas are explicitly split into "human friendly" and "Cylon friendly" types, how will this work?

The way I saw it working before was that each agenda would have a human-friendly version and a Cylon-friendly version. So for example, you would have:

Grant Mercy

You win if:

* The humans win

* Food, Morale or Population are 2 or lower

Then you would have:

Show No Mercy

You win if:

* The Cylons win

* Food, Morale and Population are 2 or lower

So neither side could really tell which objective the Cylon Leader was going for until the very end of the game. But with the objectives split, won't this be obvious (based on how many eyes are staring back at you from the Cylon leader's agenda card)?
 
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Allan Clements
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I think the Human friendly objectives are more likely to help the humans, but not all will. Since there are 12 Secret Agendas, that means there are 6 evil ones and 6 not-so-evil ones. I would imagine that the Cylon wins and Humans wins are very similar in each set of 6. I would have hoped for more, but if they are similar enough it should be ok.

We know there is one that requires the player to get the humans to win and be infiltrating galactica at the end of the game, I would imagine there is similar one for a cylon win, but with an added condition relating to not being too evil.

 
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Pierre Pinguet
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bleached_lizard wrote:

So neither side could really tell which objective the Cylon Leader was going for until the very end of the game. But with the objectives split, won't this be obvious (based on how many eyes are staring back at you from the Cylon leader's agenda card)?


Again, we're talking without all the info, so it's a bit pointless.
But the rules states that each deck is "more likely" to be favorable/unfavorable.

You could have an agenda that is "sympathetic" but still requires a Cylon win
(eg:For a "Paternalistic" Cylon: Cylon Win but population is over 8)
 
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Roy Stephens
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What I think proves so far that the balance is NOT wrecked is that with every voter having access to the exact same information about the game so far, the results are that half of the voters think Cylons get the advantage, half think humans do.... therefore, no change in advantage, since there is no overwhelmingly obvious bias.
 
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Sam Lindsay-Levine
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I feel like I can't tell without knowing what the new Investigative Committee does exactly!

That card is such a centerpiece of my human strategy. It, Executive Order, and making the President draw all the Quorum cards form the tripod of power. #3 is eliminated, and if #1 is weakened too, it could be bad news.

Of course, it could just be a fun opportunity to devise new strategy!
 
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It seems fairly obvious to me that the change to IC is to make it a reckless skill check.
 
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MichaelL wrote:
It seems fairly obvious to me that the change to IC is to make it a reckless skill check.


I had that thought as well, though I then thought that it would be quite unthematic (by being more careful you're being reckless...?). In either event, I hope they still change it so that the destiny cards are not revealed - completely removing the uncertainty is the part that spoils it.

Actually, just had another thought: reckless may not be the most appropriate thing for this card. Reckless actions are triggered off players throwing treachery cards into skill checks. If cards are being played face up, then the chance for a hidden Cylon player to spike the check with a reckless treachery card falls to zero, making the whole exercise a bit pointless (well, except for the Cylon leaders of course, but you get the idea).
 
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Thiago Martins
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The "execute any character on the 1st round" is sounding WAY too effective. Once you on the table a character whose alliance is absolutely known to everybody, the game seems to be an easy ride for the humans. If you execute an human, make the new character a "Pradmiral" then XO him in every single turn. If you execute a cylon, well, you force him to reveal without effects nor super-crisis (nor morale lost), and you can always try to execute an human next round. Oh yeah, don't forget to repeat it at the sleeper agent phase.

A few skill cards and two morale points is really nothing compared to having an ultra-powerful character 100% human.
 
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Eliot Hemingway
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I heard that the change was that the IC doesn't reveal Destiny. Which actually puts it into its intended role of stopping sabotage, rather than being used to maximize efficiency as well.
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zearoth wrote:
The "execute any character on the 1st round" is sounding WAY too effective. Once you on the table a character whose alliance is absolutely known to everybody, the game seems to be an easy ride for the humans. If you execute an human, make the new character a "Pradmiral" then XO him in every single turn. If you execute a cylon, well, you force him to reveal without effects nor super-crisis (nor morale lost), and you can always try to execute an human next round. Oh yeah, don't forget to repeat it at the sleeper agent phase.

A few skill cards and two morale points is really nothing compared to having an ultra-powerful character 100% human.


There seems to be so much of this discussion about early execution going on without even having a chance to play the game. It may be true, but given that FFG will have done at least a little playtesting, I would rather wait before making such comments. Even if there is the opportunity for such potential abuse, I think a lot will depend on the group.

One thing to remember is that the executed human (who is now of course is above reproach until the sleeper phase) needs to consider that they may suddenly find that they are actually a Cylon later in the game in which case they may have spent the first part effectively shooting themselves in the foot. If put in this situation, I would be tempted to take the opportunity to take some open and deliberate actions against the humans just to keep the sides reasonably equal until I knew where my final loyalty lay.
 
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Thiago Martins
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DaveD wrote:
There seems to be so much of this discussion about early execution going on without even having a chance to play the game. It may be true, but given that FFG will have done at least a little playtesting, I would rather wait before making such comments. Even if there is the opportunity for such potential abuse, I think a lot will depend on the group.
Well, sure, but that's precisely the point of the thread, right? From the published rules and from that only, it seems the balance may go the human's way.

DaveD wrote:
One thing to remember is that the executed human (who is now of course is above reproach until the sleeper phase) needs to consider that they may suddenly find that they are actually a Cylon later in the game in which case they may have spent the first part effectively shooting themselves in the foot. If put in this situation, I would be tempted to take the opportunity to take some open and deliberate actions against the humans just to keep the sides reasonably equal until I knew where my final loyalty lay.
That's indeed a very good point...
 
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Brian Bankler
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hockeyjedi wrote:
What I think proves so far that the balance is NOT wrecked is that with every voter having access to the exact same information about the game so far, the results are that half of the voters think Cylons get the advantage, half think humans do.... therefore, no change in advantage, since there is no overwhelmingly obvious bias.


Well, it's looking more like 2:1 pro-cylon at this point, (not quite, but almost all the human voters are picking "Mildly pro-human" while 1/3rd of of the cylons-leaners are picking "significantly pro-cylon." And we're assuming that all voters are equally correct in their analysis. For all I know, that one guy who voted "Significantly pro-human" is right and the rest of us are wrong.

It's all just speculation, of course. What else are we going to do while waiting?
 
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Alex Rockwell
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Bankler wrote:


Well, it's looking more like 2:1 pro-cylon at this point, (not quite, but almost all the human voters are picking "Mildly pro-human" while 1/3rd of of the cylons-leaners are picking "significantly pro-cylon." And we're assuming that all voters are equally correct in their analysis. For all I know, that one guy who voted "Significantly pro-human" is right and the rest of us are wrong.

It's all just speculation, of course. What else are we going to do while waiting?


I dont think its possible for us to know the balance without playing.

The sympathetic cylon worries me though, I feel it might be wildly imbalanced depending on the number of players.
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Alexfrog wrote:
Bankler wrote:


Well, it's looking more like 2:1 pro-cylon at this point, (not quite, but almost all the human voters are picking "Mildly pro-human" while 1/3rd of of the cylons-leaners are picking "significantly pro-cylon." And we're assuming that all voters are equally correct in their analysis. For all I know, that one guy who voted "Significantly pro-human" is right and the rest of us are wrong.

It's all just speculation, of course. What else are we going to do while waiting?


I dont think its possible for us to know the balance without playing.

The sympathetic cylon worries me though, I feel it might be wildly imbalanced depending on the number of players.


How so? Do you mean the sympatheitc Cylon that replaces the original sympathiser card?
 
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Roy Stephens
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bleached_lizard wrote:


How so? Do you mean the sympatheitc Cylon that replaces the original sympathiser card?


I think he does, but remember, the Sympathetic Cylon is an optional variant replacement for the Sympathizer. Not that that makes a difference, but, just clarifying that it does not automatically replace the sympathizer, just gives an alternative to the sympathizer if you don't like it.
 
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hockeyjedi wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:


How so? Do you mean the sympatheitc Cylon that replaces the original sympathiser card?


I think he does, but remember, the Sympathetic Cylon is an optional variant replacement for the Sympathizer. Not that that makes a difference, but, just clarifying that it does not automatically replace the sympathizer, just gives an alternative to the sympathizer if you don't like it.


But why might it be unbalanced depending on number of players?
 
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bleached_lizard wrote:
hockeyjedi wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:


How so? Do you mean the sympatheitc Cylon that replaces the original sympathiser card?


I think he does, but remember, the Sympathetic Cylon is an optional variant replacement for the Sympathizer. Not that that makes a difference, but, just clarifying that it does not automatically replace the sympathizer, just gives an alternative to the sympathizer if you don't like it.


But why might it be unbalanced depending on number of players?


I'm not really sure, unless the feeling is that in a smaller game, say, 4 players, you have 2 true humans, 1 true "evil" Cylon, and 1 guaranteed "friendly" Cylon... so, the "evil" cylon never really gets an ally, even if he would normally get one due to the resources all being way blue or something... i guess... i dunno. The sympathetic cylon just wants to hurt the humans a little... so, he will be playing both sides. To me, that actually seems like a fun role... you want to balance both sides so that your side wins... with YOUR conditions met. That actually seems to be the epitome of balance.you want the humans to win... but not TOO much.

What would be even cooler is if the sympathetic agenda actually enabled the sympthetic cylon to win INSTEAD of the humans OR the evil cylon. Kind of like the Bene Gesserit in the Dune boardgame. "Ah yes, the Atreides met the win conditions on turn 5... however, I PREDICTED that, as you can see on my sheet, therefore I win instead!!"
 
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