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Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game – Pegasus Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: One Morale For Execution? rss

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Cactus god
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Is anyone else a little concerned by this? I realize the morale counter isn't extremely high and since morale is a precious resource that is attacked most by crisis cards it makes sense that we lose it for execution...However...Just one? I mean, lets be honest. The president can play 4 inspirational speeches throughout the game, even if two of them are successful and the other two get discarded temporarily, you still have some extra morale gain available. I dont see whats stopping the humans from deciding to randomly execute one person immediately in order to guarantee that they're loyal?

It seems like this would be an effective strategy and I'm not sure the one morale loss is going to deter people.

Any thoughts?
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Gary Laporte
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Yes, I fear the same thing. I don't know if the morale loss is that bad compared to the fact that you now have a player you can xo, make admiral or president without fear of him being a Cylon.

Edit: I think the idea of a second loyalty deck, where there is a chance you'll add a Cylon by executing somebody, could be a cool one.
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Chris J Davis
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Also remember that there's another morale boost included in this expansion in the form of the Major Victory leadership skill card.
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Cactus god
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Also remember that there's another morale boost included in this expansion in the form of the Major Victory leadership skill card.


This is true. To be honest, I really expected a 3 morale loss per execution by pegasus or caprica board and a 2 morale loss for crisis cards. 1 loss truly surprised me.


 
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Chris J Davis
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Cactusgod wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
Also remember that there's another morale boost included in this expansion in the form of the Major Victory leadership skill card.


This is true. To be honest, I really expected a 3 morale loss per execution by pegasus or caprica board and a 2 morale loss for skill cards. 1 loss truly surprised me.


Do you mean crisis cards?

Yeah - I was expecting 2 for everything.
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Cactus god
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Yeah thanks, crisis cards, I edited it. 2 for everything is also reasonable. My buddies and I have been worried about this mechanic now for a long time. In my opinion the greatest thing this game has going for it is the traitor element. I don't care if its battlestar or not, I would play this game regardless, simply because we absolutely love secret traitor games where you can't trust anyone. Unfortunately there are only two really good ones, and that's this first, then Shadows Over Camelot.

I really hope this isn't as cylon breaking as it seems.

Edit * I do realize that using the New Caprica board means that multiple people could be executed, especially if the admiral is a cylon, at the end of the game. Meaning that, if 3 players are executed , you may end up losing 3 morale at that time and it could be game breaking, since many of the games you end up with just a few morale. I'm not sure if this will prevent people from doing the turn one execution though.
 
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Cactusgod wrote:
Yeah thanks, crisis cards, I edited it. 2 for everything is also reasonable. My buddies and I have been worried about this mechanic now for a long time. In my opinion the greatest thing this game has going for it is the traitor element. I don't care if its battlestar or not, I would play this game regardless, simply because we absolutely love secret traitor games where you can't trust anyone. Unfortunately there are only two really good ones, and that's this first, then Shadows Over Camelot.

I really hope this isn't as cylon breaking as it seems.


Yeah - I'm pretty much against anything that removes the uncertainty of who's who and which side people are playing for. That's the focal point of the game, IMO. I was excited for the execution mechanic when I thought that it was something you would do only when you're absolutely sure anyway (like when an unrevealed Cylon is making blatent Cylon actions, like throwing humans in the brig), but would be something you would try to avoid otherwise. This this seems a bit... meh.

It was also presumed by many people up till now that the new character drawn by an executed human player would receive new loyalty cards to keep the uncertainty in the game, but this also isn't the case. I'm thinking of a variant to introduce this (as well as replace the Sleeper Agent phase with a Court Martial/execution phase) but it will be difficult to ensure the game balance stays straight. If you start introducing more Cylon players throughout the game (and removing human players) it will make things much harder on the humans... but it would certainly make the humans think twice before executing someone!

As it is, it seems like many executions will happen each game. There have been arguments saying "but the humans will have to waste actions and skill cards to do this", but there are execution options on crisis cards as well. These crisis cards might as well say "-1 Morale, but the humans receive the benefit of having someone they can now trust completely". And you thought Investigative Committee was bad!
 
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bleached_lizard wrote:
Cactusgod wrote:
Yeah thanks, crisis cards, I edited it. 2 for everything is also reasonable. My buddies and I have been worried about this mechanic now for a long time. In my opinion the greatest thing this game has going for it is the traitor element. I don't care if its battlestar or not, I would play this game regardless, simply because we absolutely love secret traitor games where you can't trust anyone. Unfortunately there are only two really good ones, and that's this first, then Shadows Over Camelot.

I really hope this isn't as cylon breaking as it seems.


Yeah - I'm pretty much against anything that removes the uncertainty of who's who and which side people are playing for. That's the focal point of the game, IMO. I was excited for the execution mechanic when I thought that it was something you would do only when you're absolutely sure anyway (like when an unrevealed Cylon is making blatent Cylon actions, like throwing humans in the brig), but would be something you would try to avoid otherwise. This this seems a bit... meh.

It was also presumed by many people up till now that the new character drawn by an executed human player would receive new loyalty cards to keep the uncertainty in the game, but this also isn't the case. I'm thinking of a variant to introduce this (as well as replace the Sleeper Agent phase with a Court Martial/execution phase) but it will be difficult to ensure the game balance stays straight. If you start introducing more Cylon players throughout the game (and removing human players) it will make things much harder on the humans... but it would certainly make the humans think twice before executing someone!

As it is, it seems like many executions will happen each game. There have been arguments saying "but the humans will have to waste actions and skill cards to do this", but there are execution options on crisis cards as well. These crisis cards might as well say "-1 Morale, but the humans receive the benefit of having someone they can now trust completely". And you thought Investigative Committee was bad!


Yeah...and not only that, the skill check isn't even all that amazing either. I was expecting like a skill check of 20 for an airlock...but noooo. As for the Investigative Committe, I confess...despite my constant perusal of these boards and my 70+ now playthroughs, Im not sure what the issues is. Are people using an IC every turn or something, preventing sabotage? I'm curious.

Edit* Ugh...this is what happens when its 7am and you still haven't gone to bed. What I mean is, I'm seeing a few comments about IC and IC in the rules, and I had never heard of a problem before.
 
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Allan Clements
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Well I have thought this about execution but I am starting to think that maybe we are overreacting. At first glance it does seem a bit too easy but I think 1 morale is worse than it seems.

I would imagine that 2 morale loss was probably something that was tried but felt like much too big a drop, especially since it is likely that people would be left behind on New Caprica.


Yes, the president can gain 4 morale, possibly even more if the new card in the rules affects morale but there are more Quorum cards now, and with the limit of 10 cards it will be harder for the President to get the cards needed especially if we are just sat in the overpowered Pegasus Engine room making sure we always get a jump icon, while executing every character to make sure they are not a Cylon

I actually do think executing at least one player is a good idea, which is kind of what happend in the show anyway. If you execute someone before the half way point though you are just basically wasting morale as they will still get a new loyalty card later AND could even pick Baltar or Boomer and get even more Loyalty cards.

Also passing the Airlock skill check is not as easy as it looks, especially since the Cylon leader (and secret cylon) may disagree with who you are trying to kill. I also think that some of the Secret Agendas involve the Cylon Leader winning if a certain number of players are executed.

My major concern about execution is the Crisis Cards that offer a choice, to be executed or not, these to me seem like it is always better to choose the execution option, which is not what I first thought when reading them before we knew about the specifics of execution.
 
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Cactus god
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Yeah I certainly hope you're right. So once you execute somebody, you immediately have them draw a card and they don't get one at the sleeper agent? I'm tired and must have missed that. I thought only a few characters got new loyalty cards immediately, and the rest had to wait until the sleeper. If EVERY character gets a card immediately after being executed then it's not nearly as broken as I was thinking, since the first execution essentially means nothing unless a person was actually the cylon.

Edit* I checked the rules and it doesn't seem like all players get loyalty cards right after being executed, so if you see it let me know. I could be missing it.
 
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Gary Laporte
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I think a good way of avoiding getting "execution-crazy" would be to keep something like (number of players around the table) loyalty cards in a deck for the executed. In this deck, there are 1 or 2 Cylon cards depending of the number of players. When there is no loyalty cards anymore in this deck, then the humans lose.

I still hope that we're worrying too much about this and that the traitor mechanism hasn't been botched by the execution stuff... Because that's one of the main strengths of BSG.soblue
 
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Allan Clements
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Cactusgod wrote:

Edit* Ugh...this is what happens when its 7am and you still haven't gone to bed. What I mean is, I'm seeing a few comments about IC and IC in the rules, and I had never heard of a problem before.


Well a fair few people on these forums, seem to think that abusing the Press Room to get lots of yellow cards means you can IC every single skill check which prevents the Cylon from ever secretly putting negative cards into a skill check.

This is true to some extent, but our group never really has embraced the Press Room strategy, they just seem to think I am a Cylon when I suggest it...
 
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Kamakaze wrote:
Cactusgod wrote:

Edit* Ugh...this is what happens when its 7am and you still haven't gone to bed. What I mean is, I'm seeing a few comments about IC and IC in the rules, and I had never heard of a problem before.


Well a fair few people on these forums, seem to think that abusing the Press Room to get lots of yellow cards means you can IC every single skill check which prevents the Cylon from ever secretly putting negative cards into a skill check.

This is true to some extent, but our group never really has embraced the Press Room strategy, they just seem to think I am a Cylon when I suggest it...



Ooooh interesting. Yeah our group has never encountered this scenario before. Generally if we have a yellow player, they'll use IC when theres a big skill check or something that could damage us. Normally we'd think someone was a cylon for running up and getting politics cards, because generally there's terrible things happening all around galactica ;p
 
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Allan Clements
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Ifyou execute someone BEFORE the sleeper phase, then at the sleeper phase they will get another Loyalty card like everyone else does. So executing at the start means you will probably kill loyal humans, and you won't know for certain if they are Cylons even once you kill them since the new card they get later could be a Cylon card. This is all before the sleeper phase of course, after that you can be safe in knowing that they are not a Cylon, but then you will definitely have 1/2 Cylons who might disagree/agree with you trying to airlock people!

Getting an extra loyalty card was specific to Balter/Boomer. If you kill Boomer before the sleep phase, that player gets a new Loyalty card before getting her new character, so you cannot avoid Boomers negative entirely by killing her off early.

If the new character that a player picks is Balter/Boomer and it is still before the sleeper phase, then Baltar will get a new Loyalty card straight away, and Boomer will get an extra loyalty card in the sleeper phase like normal.

So if you did want to try an "execution" strategy, then you would need to do it after the sleeper phase, or you are just going to be wasting morale and cards on killing humans, who might still become a Cylon in the second half.
 
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Gary Laporte
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But the strategy of just executing one person will work, and then this person will get xo, become admiral/president and do all the stuff until the sleeper phase... So much for the paranoia and the traitor element.

I really hope such a repetitive tactic can't be applied, as I don't want to see every BSG game starting by an execution.
 
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Exactly, if you execute someone and they're loyal, you can do amazing things with them and rally around them until the sleeper agent phase. A good human player might even offer to not fight a skill check to take away some of their power if they're the president and such, just incase they do become a cylon. I think every game will start with an instant execution of the person who generally turns out to be the cylon of the group.
 
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Allan Clements
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Well I don't think one person alone can do everything, you are just wasting XO's if you get them to move somewhere and do something.

Aside from the lying factor, if someone looks at a persons loyalty card at the start we can probably safely say they aren't a Cylon if they aren't accused. Do you just XO them for the rest of the game until we get loyalty cards? No, because there are many things you need to do, pilot vipers, president stuff, fire nukes, scouting, repairing.

Sure you could move them to the press room, have them draw lots of yellow cards, then use consolidate power to get lots of other cards. However if I was that player, I would just keep all those lovely cards until the sleeper phase and see which side I am actually on

This also assumes you always draw XO's, which might not be the case for many characters, especially those with 1 Leadership, and there is always Boomer with her wonderful no-leadership skill set =)

 
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This is true. I think the only difference, though, is that everyone knows FOR SURE if someone is loyal. Even if the odds are completely in our favor, theres still a chance that there are two cylons at the start, and that one of them got to look at the others card. This is why you can't trust somebody 100%. Also, due to the fear of the double brig, its hard to trust the president. A loyal president means that you can give them more xo's to do what they please when the board is empty.
 
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Chris J Davis
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LNAGary wrote:
I think a good way of avoiding getting "execution-crazy" would be to keep something like (number of players around the table) loyalty cards in a deck for the executed. In this deck, there are 1 or 2 Cylon cards depending of the number of players. When there is no loyalty cards anymore in this deck, then the humans lose.

I still hope that we're worrying too much about this and that the traitor mechanism hasn't been botched by the execution stuff... Because that's one of the main strengths of BSG.soblue


You just stole my idea.

We'll see how the game plays in practice... but I've already got a number of ideas in mind for making executions a bit more brutal, just in case.
 
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Gary Laporte
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Yeah, I did think it was your idea... Sorry, but now it'll be marked as "Gary's wonderful idea for keeping the traitor mechanism in spite of the execution" now !

About Kamakaze's answer, I agree with you that we have to playtest it anyway, and we're probably overreactin or worrying a bit too early... But the traitor mechanism is great in the game and it would be too bad if it was ruined (although we don't know if it is for now!).

And I was expecting the execution to be something more serious in the game, a bit like in Shadows over Camelot where accusing another player of felony has to be done when you're about sure. Here, it seems that you could get players to say "execute me? Oh yes, please do", which does not sound like "Being executed is extremely unpleasant and should be avoided at all costs"...
 
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Allan Clements
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Oh and if you execute the president, he might not come back as a character who is the President. If Baltar and Roslin are picked, then if you execute Roslin then Balter becomes the President no matter who the other player picks.
 
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Kamakaze wrote:
and there is always Boomer with her wonderful no-leadership skill set =)


Yes, Boomer has a wonderful set. I mean... where was I? whistle whistle

Ah, yes. Executions. Guess we'll have to wait and see how it works in practice. Keep in mind that an "Executed and Cleared" character is prime target for receiving the actual Cylon's additional Loyalty Cards when he reveals, so what are you gonna do? Execute him again? [Though that's only an issue on games with 5 players and no Cylon Leader, or 6 players, and probably not a big one anyway...] I have faith in Coniezka &Co.
 
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LNAGary wrote:
Yeah, I did think it was your idea... Sorry, but now it'll be marked as "Gary's wonderful idea for keeping the traitor mechanism in spite of the execution" now !

About Kamakaze's answer, I agree with you that we have to playtest it anyway, and we're probably overreactin or worrying a bit too early... But the traitor mechanism is great in the game and it would be too bad if it was ruined (although we don't know if it is for now!).

And I was expecting the execution to be something more serious in the game, a bit like in Shadows over Camelot where accusing another player of felony has to be done when you're about sure. Here, it seems that you could get players to say "execute me? Oh yes, please do", which does not sound like "Being executed is extremely unpleasant and should be avoided at all costs"...


It's also very "gamey", akin to dropping a resource below half to prevent a Cylon sympathiser from appearing. You're killing someone for no reason other than to create a "safe" role in the game.
 
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Allan Cybulskie
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In addition to the cost of it in terms of morale and skill cards, note that if you execute a character you lose their abilities for the rest of the game. So, say you execute Roslin on the first turn. Say bye-bye to Religious Visions and Skilled Politician. Or you kill Helo. Say bye-bye to ECM Officer and Moral Compass. That means that if you kill off a character, you have to choose one whose abilities you won't miss or that you think you can make up with the next character selection. Sure, people who are aiming for the precise best strategy might make some choices that lean that way, but people who just want to have fun won't; they'll be very upset if they pick their favorite character and people insist on executing that character because its ability set is less than ideal ...

So:

People interested in the theme won't go for a strong "Execute 'em all" strategy, and so won't execute on the first turn.

People strongly interested in strategy will all take characters who have the most useful abilities, making it less than ideal to kill them.

People trying to be insanely strategic will have one player take a weak character so that that character can be killed and replaced with a stronger one whom is trusted.
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Roy Stephens
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The Investigative Committee card is changing, however... check the components list and the instructions for integrating the expansion stuff into the game. So, the Press Room strategy may not be viable anymore.

 
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