Blue Jackal
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As the title says, does Hanno's special require a CU? The text at the end of the 2nd ed. rulebook slightly suggests it does, and it also leads to the odd situation where you can drop a PC under Hanno.
 
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Brandon Ketchum
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BlueJackal wrote:
As the title says, does Hanno's special require a CU? The text at the end of the 2nd ed. rulebook slightly suggests it does, and it also leads to the odd situation where you can drop a PC under Hanno.


I never thought of it, but I would say that yes, he does have to have a CU. The two pertinant rules to look at are these:

Quote:
24: A general's special ability can only be used when he is a commanding general.


Okay, so that kind of implies that Hanno would need an army of at least one CU, but it alone doesn't answer the question. Coupled with this next rule segment, though, I think our issue is answered:

Quote:
24: Hanno may only use his special ability to remove a Roman PC if his Army does not engage in battle.


This implies that Hanno must have an army of at least one CU to use his special ability. I'm not saying this is the 'final' answer, but reading the rules myself, it appears to be the proper interpretation.

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John B. Firer
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By definition an army is a general and at least 1 CU. Based uopon that and the rules cited, Hanno requires at least 1 CU to remove the PC.

JBF
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Volker Hirscher
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Of course, I'm also not sure, but I disagree. I think, the reference to "army" in the rules is just there to clarify that Hanno is not allowed to battle when he wants to use his ability. Anyway, I don't see a reason why he should not be allowed to move and remove PCs on his own, without CUs...
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Brandon Ketchum
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No, Army definitely refers to a general with CUs, I know that for sure. There's still some question on Hanno's ability, but per the rules I am inclined to still believe he would need a CU.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Thats ok for me. I do not have any problems with the definition of army. But what exactly does Hanno's ability say? Has anyone the gamebaord at hand?
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Just found it - the special ability text on the gameboard does NOT refer to an army in any way...
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Brandon Ketchum
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Volker, you really need to read the whole thread before responding. The whole issue has generated around what is specifically stated about Hanno in the rules. It is not explained further on the game board, but is expanded on in the rules. Towards the end of the rules, in section 24, it says:

Quote:
24: Hanno may only use his special ability to remove a Roman PC if his Army does not engage in battle.


That implies that Hanno has an army. The problem that I have is whether or not they wrote the rules as such specifically applying to if Hanno fights, or whether it broadly states that Hanno needs an army of at least 1 CU to accompany him to use his special ability at all times.

As the rule is written, it seems to imply an army is needed. I am inclined to believe that may not be the intentions of the designer, but until I read a reasonable dissuasion of that viewpoint or until the designer chimes in, I have to go with the wording in the rules.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Mmmh - I do not know why you think that I did not read the thread!!

The gameboard shows the explanation of the ability, the rules give more details for the (special) case that Hanno's army may not battle. That does NOT say that you need an army! No way!

Quote:
24: Hanno may only use his special ability to remove a Roman PC if his Army does not engage in battle.


This paragraph explains that he may not use his ability after battle. It does not say nor imply that you need an army.

This is over-interpretation, for me...
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Russ Williams
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stout_rugger wrote:
No, Army definitely refers to a general with CUs, I know that for sure. There's still some question on Hanno's ability, but per the rules I am inclined to still believe he would need a CU.

I see:
Rules Glossary of Game Terms wrote:
Army: An Army consists of a general and any number of friendly combat units stacked together in a space.

"Any number" could be understood as including zero as a possible number. Certainly various game rules have used "any number" to mean "non-negative", not just "positive" in various other contexts. Is there another place in the rules that explicitly clarifies that an Army must have a positive number of CUs?

I realize I'm splitting hairs, but that seems in the spirit of this thread...
 
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Brandon Ketchum
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Russ, it's clear you're just trying to agitate, because you already know that an Army must have 1 CU in HRC. I know, probably a joke trying to lighten things up, but still, let's not muddy the waters even farther for newbies that may be reading this, eh? We KNOW you must have at least 1 CU to have an Army in HRC. That is not the question.


Volker, I understand better what you're trying to say. When you replied before, you didn't reference the rule and seemed to say that the game board trumps the rules. I now find that's not what you meant at all, so I apologize for the above comment that arose from that misunderstanding.

I tend to agree that the spirit of the rule is probably what you describe, but failing that I would fall back on the expanded rule in the book. I did send a message to the designer to see if he could rule on this.

It may seem like we're splitting hairs on a minor topic, Russ, but it may very well be a big deal if, say, Mago just took all the troops out of Africa and Rome does a surprise revolt and placement of PCs.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Any clarification on this issue in the meantime?
 
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I'm gonna chime in here on my thinking because I haven't seen it brought up yet. The only reference to army is in a context discussing whether or not battle and pc flipping are mutually exclusive. Since battle must include CU's it makes sense in that context to use the word army. That doesn't necessarily imply that an army is necessary to pc-flip. In fact, it would probably be explicitly made clear if that was the case.

Having made the semantic case, I also think the spirit of the special ability is that Hanno "charms" rather than intimidates the people back to the Carthaginian cause. This would further indicate that no CU is necessary.
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Brandon Ketchum
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Actually, a friend and I were playing tonight and discussed it. Elsewhere in the rules, when discussing an individual general, it simply says an unaccompanied general. When specifically discusssing Hanno's special ability, it says an ARMY. Well, Hanno is a general and not an army. End of discussion.
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Richard Young
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Thank-you Brandon - well put!
 
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Russ Williams
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stout_rugger wrote:
When specifically discusssing Hanno's special ability, it says an ARMY. Well, Hanno is a general and not an army. End of discussion.

Similar question: can a general with no CUs can be intercepted during his movement?

I had always assumed a lone general can be intercepted, but I just noticed that the interception rules talk about intercepting an ARMY. End of discussion?

Also note that the movement procedure step 3 says "Move the army" (not "Move the general"), yet it is explicitly stated that "Generals can move with or without CUs" - so the rules used "army" here to mean "0 or more CUs", not "at least one CU".

So it's not actually 100% clear that the rules consistently use "army" when they mean "at least one CU".
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Volker Hirscher
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I still think Brandon is wrong.

@Russ: The interception rules say the following: Interception may occur (12.2)
Quote:
whenever an enemy Army or General enters
(via land or naval movement) a space adjacent to the Army


So, quite obvious. I had the same opinion you do for a long time, but the above example is another one where the rules clearly separate between "army" and "General", so I'm quite sure that an army = General with >= 1 CU.

But back to Hanno, this is not the case. The ability does not mentiion "army". Only the rules clarify that Hanno may not use his ability when fighting a battle with an army before.
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Richard Young
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The rules are clear about what Hanno can do or not when he is in charge of an army. The issue is whether he can exercise his ability by himself without an army. Arguing that he is an army by himself is ridiculous because rules regarding movement and battle would all have to be changed to allow lone generals to do stuff we know they can't from the rules as currently written.

The problem is the wording on the board which could have been clearer. In an effort to conserve space, I believe the wording was shortened and resulted in the ambiguity we've been discussing (sometimes designers think some things are obvious).

Hanno: May remove a Roman non-walled PC if it ends its move on the PC. May not leave Africa. (Italics mine)

No-one refers to a person as "it." The only construction of the phrase as worded that makes sense is to add the missing words.

Hanno: Hanno's army may remove a Roman non-walled PC if it ends its move on the PC. Hanno may not leave Africa.

That wouldn't have fit in the space available. If the words "it" and "its" should have been "he" and "his" you have a job to explain why "it" and "its" were the words chosen.

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Volker Hirscher
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Good point, Richard. Actually the first argument in the whole thread why maybe the designer wanted Hanno to have an army.

Then again - how was the wording in the AH edition? Maybe it is just an prining error, taken over by VG?

Something official would be nice here - a pity that the designer is here only rarely...
 
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Volker Hirscher
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I got an official answer:
Yes, you need a CU (i.e. Hanno must have an Army with him to use his special ability).
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