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Subject: Does Overwatch Fire at Every Genestealer That's Revealed? rss

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Fergus Hadley
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When a blip is involuntarily revealed, does the mini being placed trigger overwatch? And if so, do marines get to shoot at every model placed or just the foremost?
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Slev Sleddeddan
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There is no way to involuntarily reveal a blip to a figure in overwatch which would not remove overwatch from that figure I believe.
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Jason Alexander
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SM is firing in overwatch at a GS screaming down the hallway at him. GS is destroyed in a hail of bolter fire, revealing a blip directly behind the now-dead stealer. Blip is immediately involuntarily converted. SM gets an overwatch shot at the one and only GS in his immediate LoS but not any others that popped up behind him (in this case we're talking a 1 space wide hallway). This is my understanding.
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Jack
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Slev wrote:
There is no way to involuntarily reveal a blip to a figure in overwatch which would not remove overwatch from that figure I believe.


I can see a situation where a Marine on overwatch could be watching a distant junction which had a blip just around the corner. If another Marine turned a corner or opened a door sighting that blip, the placement of the revealed Genestealers could result in one now being placed in the junction, triggering overwatch.
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Dan M
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I don't have the rules in front of me so I may be mistaken.

Overwatch only works when a genestealer takes an action, and after the action, the genestealer is still within the marine's line of sight. If those conditions are met, then you can fire in overwatch.

Revealing a blip is not considered an action (like move, fire, close assault). Therefore the act of revealing the blip would not trigger overwatch, but as soon as the genestealer takes an action the marine would be allowed overwatch.

Or at least that's how I play.
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Jason Alexander
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DrunkDwarves wrote:
I don't have the rules in front of me so I may be mistaken.

Overwatch only works when a genestealer takes an action, and after the action, the genestealer is still within the marine's line of sight. If those conditions are met, then you can fire in overwatch.

Revealing a blip is not considered an action (like move, fire, close assault). Therefore the act of revealing the blip would not trigger overwatch, but as soon as the genestealer takes an action the marine would be allowed overwatch.

Or at least that's how I play.


P. 17 of the rulebook states:

With involuntary reveals the Genestealer may be placed in the Marine's LoS. In this case placing the Genestealer counts as performing an action and so the space marine can fire on overwatch or spend command points to perform an action.

So you are correct, if the reveal is voluntary. In my other post, I was correct because the reveal was involuntary.
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Dan M
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That's good to know! Just one more thing to keep in mind as a marine player while under a time constraint. I know for sure if I was playing the Stealers that one won't be mentioned!
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Alan Richbourg
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DrunkDwarves wrote:
So you are correct, if the reveal is voluntary.


If the reveal is voluntary, it can't place a stealer in a marine's LOS, so it's a mute point.

The OP asked a valid question, because the wording of the rule makes it seem like you might get a shot each time an individual stealer is placed, but I tend to think Breakdaddy has it right (that's the way we've been playing it - one shot after all stealers for one blip have been placed).
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Mike
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One other thing worth noting is you cannot voluntarily place a genestealer in LoS of a marine. That is part of the rules of voluntary conversion.
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Jason Alexander
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chargetheguns and goblinmarine are also correct. I am sorry that I did not make this clear in the above post. If you are the GS player you can neither force the blip into the LoS of a marine model nor can you voluntarily convert a blip and then place one of your GS models in the LoS of a marine model. Voluntary conversion must always take place outside of the LoS of a marine model. Involuntary conversion is as stated above. Since the marine player gets to place the GS models (the GS player still determines facing of all placed models) during an involuntary conversion, the marine player may place GS models in the LoS of a marine as long as the first placed model is in the same square as the blip when revealed and all additional placed models are adjacent to the first model.
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Fergus Hadley
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Breakdaddy wrote:
P. 17 of the rulebook states:

With involuntary reveals the Genestealer may be placed in the Marine's LoS. In this case placing the Genestealer counts as performing an action and so the space marine can fire on overwatch or spend command points to perform an action.


Note how it says placing the genestealer is an action not converting the blip. If the blip is a 3, three genestealers are placed and so three actions are taken. That's three shots to the marine on overwatch.

No?
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David Knepper
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No, the other two aren't in the Marine's line of sight, which is the other criteria for an overwatch shot.
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Jason Alexander
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voidstate wrote:
Breakdaddy wrote:
P. 17 of the rulebook states:

With involuntary reveals the Genestealer may be placed in the Marine's LoS. In this case placing the Genestealer counts as performing an action and so the space marine can fire on overwatch or spend command points to perform an action.


Note how it says placing the genestealer is an action not converting the blip. If the blip is a 3, three genestealers are placed and so three actions are taken. That's three shots to the marine on overwatch.

No?


I actually didn't realize that until you said that but yes. As written on p. 17, it would seem placing individual GS in the LoS of the marine would trigger individual Overwatch fire actions. However, they must all be within his LoS, which would be atypical in many of the single-file-hallway heavy scenarios (since a model will block LoS to models behind it).

I have yet to encounter this situation in-game, which is why it's good to know now before it comes up :)
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Jon Day
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My view on this rule would be:

involuntary reveal of a 3 blip.

Place 1 steeler, OW fire at it
Place another, infront in LOS (as marine player is placing it), OW fire at it
Place the 3rd behind the 1st out of LOS
(or if the 2nd steeler died place it in that now vacant spot to get a third OW shot).

All seems within the rules and its how i've been playing.
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Jason Alexander
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jond wrote:
My view on this rule would be:

involuntary reveal of a 3 blip.

Place 1 steeler, OW fire at it
Place another, infront in LOS (as marine player is placing it), OW fire at it
Place the 3rd behind the 1st out of LOS
(or if the 2nd steeler died place it in that now vacant spot to get a third OW shot).

All seems within the rules and its how i've been playing.


Wow, that adds a whole new level of evilness to an involuntary reveal!
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Kevin Outlaw
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Here’s how I play it (I believe it is true to the letter of 3rd ed rules):

The number of shots you get depends on the situation. Revealing a blip and placing all the stealers is a simultaneous action. Bearing that in mind, and your LOS, you can figure out how many shots you get:

Example 1.

A 3 Blip is revealed in a narrow (one square wide) corridor. The stealers are placed. Placing a stealer in LOS activates overwatch. One stealer was placed in LOS (the other two would be behind this one), so you get one overwatch shot.

Example 2:

A 3 blip is revealed in a room (3 squares wide) and there is an overwatch marine in the doorway. The stealers are placed simultaneously in a line across the room (rather than behind each other). As all three stealers were placed in the LOS of the marine in the doorway, he gets one shot at each. No sustained fire.
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David Knepper
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Here’s how I play it (I believe it is true to the letter of 3rd ed rules):

The number of shots you get depends on the situation. Revealing a blip and placing all the stealers is a simultaneous action. Bearing that in mind, and your LOS, you can figure out how many shots you get:

Example 1.

A 3 Blip is revealed in a narrow (one square wide) corridor. The stealers are placed. Placing a stealer in LOS activates overwatch. One stealer was placed in LOS (the other two would be behind this one), so you get one overwatch shot.

Example 2:

A 3 blip is revealed in a room (3 squares wide) and there is an overwatch marine in the doorway. The stealers are placed simultaneously in a line across the room (rather than behind each other). As all three stealers were placed in the LOS of the marine in the doorway, he gets one shot at each. No sustained fire.


Not likely that you will have a line of sight to all three spaces when the blip involuntarily reveals, so you will still only get one shot.
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David Knepper
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Breakdaddy wrote:
voidstate wrote:
Breakdaddy wrote:
P. 17 of the rulebook states:

With involuntary reveals the Genestealer may be placed in the Marine's LoS. In this case placing the Genestealer counts as performing an action and so the space marine can fire on overwatch or spend command points to perform an action.


Note how it says placing the genestealer is an action not converting the blip. If the blip is a 3, three genestealers are placed and so three actions are taken. That's three shots to the marine on overwatch.

No?


I actually didn't realize that until you said that but yes. As written on p. 17, it would seem placing individual GS in the LoS of the marine would trigger individual Overwatch fire actions. However, they must all be within his LoS, which would be atypical in many of the single-file-hallway heavy scenarios (since a model will block LoS to models behind it).

I have yet to encounter this situation in-game, which is why it's good to know now before it comes up


And I think it can be argued that placing GS from the involuntary conversion of a blip is a single action and the number of GS converted is not relevant. Conversion is a single event, all the GS are placed simultaneously.
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Jon Day
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The Rulebook says

"placing the Geanstealer counts as an action"

Singular.
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Jason Alexander
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The argument could be made either way based on reading the paragraph on p. 17 of the rulebook.

The exact wording, from the book:

"In the case of voluntary reveals, the Genestealers may not be placed in line of sight of a Space Marine. With involuntary reveals, they may be and, in this case, placing the Genestealer counts as performing an action and so the Space Marine can fire on overwatch or spend command points to perform an action."

The wording leaves it open to interpretation because "placing the Genestealer" could mean each individual Genestealer or it could assume that only one Genestealer will be placed in the Marine's LoS.
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James Hébert
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To be certain, is conversion "instantaneous" no matter how many Stealers are revealed?

So in the 1-wide corridor situation, an involuntary reveal would place, say 3 Stealers in a row, and the SM on overwatch can shoot only the first, since that's the only one he "saw" that had made what counts as an action. Would that be accurate?

That's my read... it's too bad the manual did not cover this a bit more thoroughly, as in "placing one or more revealed Genestealers counts as an action"
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Jason Alexander
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jhebert wrote:
To be certain, is conversion "instantaneous" no matter how many Stealers are revealed?

So in the 1-wide corridor situation, an involuntary reveal would place, say 3 Stealers in a row, and the SM on overwatch can shoot only the first, since that's the only one he "saw" that had made what counts as an action. Would that be accurate?

That's my read... it's too bad the manual did not cover this a bit more thoroughly, as in "placing one or more revealed Genestealers counts as an action"


I would likely go with Aging One and jond on this one, but it's certainly ambiguously worded in the rulebook.
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David Knepper
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jond wrote:
The Rulebook says

"placing the Geanstealer counts as an action"

Singular.


Well, that is certainly a point.

It would appear, though, that there is only one instance where this would be an issue:

A Marine, on overwatch, standing in a doorway to a room with a GS two spaces in front of him (center square in the room) with a 3 GS blip immediately behind the GS. The GS, blocking the LoS to the blip, either moves towards the Marine on overwatch and is gunned-down, or simply moves to unblock the LoS to the blip. The Marine player places all three GS is the LoS of the Marine in the doorway.

Then, the CP corollary to this must be, if the Marine was not on overwatch, but the GS that was blocking LoS to the blip, unblocked that LoS, the Marine could spend 1 CP per GS to shoot at each GS?
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Jon Day
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If any genestealers being placed are killed by OW fire whats to stop a marine player putting them in the just vacated space in LOS and taking another shot?

This way its quite easy to kill all 3 stealers in a narrow corridoor. (which occurs much more frequently in the game)
 
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David Knepper
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jond wrote:
If any genestealers being placed are killed by OW fire whats to stop a marine player putting them in the just vacated space in LOS and taking another shot?

This way its quite easy to kill all 3 stealers in a narrow corridoor. (which occurs much more frequently in the game)


You don't resolve overwatch fire until after the GS have been placed on the board. They are placed at the same time, not sequentially.
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