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Subject: Dominion Knights rss

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Joel Fried
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
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Serf
Place this card in an attacker's discard pile to ignore an attack.
1 coin
Cost: 1
Reaction/Treasure

Peasant
+2 Actions
Cost: 2
Action

Plow
Discard any number of cards. If you discard more than two cards, trash this card. At the end of your turn, when you draw five cards, draw that many additional cards.
Cost: 2
Action

Loan Shark
+3 Coins
-1 Victory Point
Cost: 3
Action/Curse

Recycle
Choose one of the following, trash a card and draw a card, gain a card from the trash, or choose matching cards from the trash for each other player in the game and place one such card on top of each opponent’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action - Attack

Tournament
+2 Cards
Each player takes a card from their hand and places it face down on the table. Any placed card which has a cost equal to the lowest amongst these cards is trashed. All other cards are returned to their owner's hand.
Cost: 3
Action

Jester
+1 Coin
+1 Buy
Choose a kingdom or treasure card stack with more cards than players in the game. Place one card from that stack on top of each player’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action

Worker Strike
+1 Card
+1 Coin
Name a card. All opponents reveal their hand and discard all copies of the named card. Opponents may draw one card for each card discarded in this manner.
Cost: 4
Action – Attack

Fealty
+1 Card
Take a copper and put it off to the side. At any time you may choose to put this copper in your hand.
Cost: 4
Action

Call to Arms
+2 Coins
Search your discard pile for a knight and put it on top of your deck. If there are no knight cards in your discard, draw a card.
Cost: 4
Action

Taxes
+1 coin
Reveal any number of victory cards. Plus 1 coin for each victory card revealed.
Cost: 4
Action

Scorch Earth
Choose a kingdom stack that does not have a curse on top of it. Place a curse on top of the stack. The next player to receive a card from that stack also receives the curse card.
You may gain a card costing up to 3.
Cost: 4
Action

Hidden Treasure
Double the value of any one treasure card. This card may be played even if you have no actions remaining.
Cost: 4
Action

Change of Plans
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Take a kingdom card of the same cost and place it in your hand.
Cost: 4
Action

Diversity
Plus 1 victory point for every 2 unique action cards in your deck.
Cost: 5
Victory

Spoils
All opponents must reveal their hand. During your buy phase you may choose to buy one card from a revealed hand instead of buying from the table. If you do so, the opponent who lost the card may gain a card costing at most 2 less.
Cost: 5
Action - Attack

Retreat
Name a card. The first three copies of that card in your discard pile are removed, and added back to their original pile.
Cost: 5
Action

Prince
Take any victory point cards in your hand, and put them aside. They are removed from your deck, but still get added to your final point total
Cost: 5
Action

Green Knight
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Each other player may discard and draw a card.
Cost: 5
Action

White Knight
+3 Cards
You may discard this card to prevent any attack. If you do so draw a card.
Cost: 5
Action – Reaction

Black Knight
+2 Coins
Each player must reveal their hand and discard the highest cost card. If they have multiple at the same value, they may choose which one.
Cost: 5
Action – Attack

Advance
Trash a victory card in your hand. Take a victory card that costs up to 3 more and place it on top of your draw pile
Cost: 5
Action

Early Renaissance
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal your hand and draw 3 cards, face up, one at a time. Discard any card that matches one in your hand or already played.
Cost: 5
Action

Castle
+2 Buys
+3 Gold
Cost: 6
Action

Platinum
4 Coins
Cost: 9
Treasure
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wodan wodan
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hawkeyeop wrote:
Serf
Place this card in an attacker's discard pile to ignore an attack.
1 coin
Cost: 1
Reaction/Treasure

Make it cost 2. 1 Cost cards are generally to be avoided, and this card is more than powerful enough.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Peasant
+2 Actions
Cost: 2
Action

I've pondered this, but its probably too powerful. I don't think 2 costers should be capable of action multiplying.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Plow
Discard any number of cards. If you discard more than two cards, trash this card. At the end of your turn, when you draw five cards, draw that many additional cards.
Cost: 2
Action

Seems overly complicated. Its also way undercosted, since you can often dump things like Estates and Coppers

I'd suggest:
Cost=3, Discard 2 this turn, Draw 2 next turn
Cost=4, Trash this card, Draw 2 next turn


hawkeyeop wrote:

Loan Shark
+3 Coins
-1 Victory Point
Cost: 3
Action/Curse

Too strong, even if requires an action to play.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Recycle
Choose one of the following, trash a card and draw a card, gain a card from the trash, or choose matching cards from the trash for each other player in the game and place one such card on top of each opponent’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action - Attack

Too strong. Multiple options gives it high utility, the second ability is broken if Swindler is in play, the third ability is ok but problematic.

I'd suggest making it something like
Cost=4: Trash up to 4 cards, then draw as many.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Tournament
+2 Cards
Each player takes a card from their hand and places it face down on the table. Any placed card which has a cost equal to the lowest amongst these cards is trashed. All other cards are returned to their owner's hand.
Cost: 3
Action

I like it. Is similar to a card of my own design, except that mine only affects opponents, and you can take the trashed card. In either case, such cards encourage people to screw each other, as the more people try and protect themselves from trashing, the bigger the loss is if they screw up.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Jester
+1 Coin
+1 Buy
Choose a kingdom or treasure card stack with more cards than players in the game. Place one card from that stack on top of each player’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action

Interesting. I like this card, all sorts of interesting gambits you can pull with it, and you were smart to add a condition that keeps it from emptying stacks. Should probably make it a flat +2 Money though.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Worker Strike
+1 Card
+1 Coin
Name a card. All opponents reveal their hand and discard all copies of the named card. Opponents may draw one card for each card discarded in this manner.
Cost: 4
Action – Attack

Reasonable. Similar to the Insurrection/Rebels card I had a while back, except mine simply forced opponents to discard a card costing 5 or more of their choice before drawing. Yours ensures that it is a valuable card that's targeted, but is not as effective against rare expensive cards.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Fealty
+1 Card
Take a copper and put it off to the side. At any time you may choose to put this copper in your hand.
Cost: 4
Action

Nifty. The lackluster immediate effects and the requirement to have copper compensate for the strong value of having a +1 when you need it the most.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Call to Arms
+2 Coins
Search your discard pile for a knight and put it on top of your deck. If there are no knight cards in your discard, draw a card.
Cost: 4
Action

???

hawkeyeop wrote:

Taxes
+1 coin
Reveal any number of victory cards. Plus 1 coin for each victory card revealed.
Cost: 4
Action

Sorry, but this card becomes broken in engine decks, to say nothing of Scouts.

I'd suggest one of the following:
Cost=4: +2 Money, Discard any number of VP cards, +1 Money for each
Cost=4: Discard any number of VP cards, +2 Money for each


hawkeyeop wrote:

Scorch Earth
Choose a kingdom stack that does not have a curse on top of it. Place a curse on top of the stack. The next player to receive a card from that stack also receives the curse card.
You may gain a card costing up to 3.
Cost: 4
Action

Is interesting, but perhaps a bit too targeted

hawkeyeop wrote:

Hidden Treasure
Double the value of any one treasure card. This card may be played even if you have no actions remaining.
Cost: 4
Action

Interesting. I think Hoard would probably be a better name. I think you could get away with simply making this a Treasure card itself, but declaring that no Treasure can be targeted more than once.


hawkeyeop wrote:

Change of Plans
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Take a kingdom card of the same cost and place it in your hand.
Cost: 4
Action

I like.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Diversity
Plus 1 victory point for every 2 unique action cards in your deck.
Cost: 5
Victory

I've seen a variant of this that costs 6, but gives at a 1 to 1 ratio. I prefer that variant over this.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Spoils
All opponents must reveal their hand. During your buy phase you may choose to buy one card from a revealed hand instead of buying from the table. If you do so, the opponent who lost the card may gain a card costing at most 2 less.
Cost: 5
Action - Attack

Too direct.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Retreat
Name a card. The first three copies of that card in your discard pile are removed, and added back to their original pile.
Cost: 5
Action

Too much book-keeping.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Prince
Take any victory point cards in your hand, and put them aside. They are removed from your deck, but still get added to your final point total
Cost: 5
Action

Too strong. Lower the cost, but also set a limit on how many it can target.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Green Knight
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Each other player may discard and draw a card.
Cost: 5
Action

Nifty.

hawkeyeop wrote:

White Knight
+3 Cards
You may discard this card to prevent any attack. If you do so draw a card.
Cost: 5
Action – Reaction

Ok

hawkeyeop wrote:

Black Knight
+2 Coins
Each player must reveal their hand and discard the highest cost card. If they have multiple at the same value, they may choose which one.
Cost: 5
Action – Attack

Ok

hawkeyeop wrote:

Advance
Trash a victory card in your hand. Take a victory card that costs up to 3 more and place it on top of your draw pile
Cost: 5
Action

Too weak. Most variants aren't as expensive or brutal.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Early Renaissance
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal your hand and draw 3 cards, face up, one at a time. Discard any card that matches one in your hand or already played.
Cost: 5
Action

Clever.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Castle
+2 Buys
+3 Gold
Cost: 6
Action

Super Woodcutter, I guess.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Platinum
4 Coins
Cost: 9
Treasure

I'd suggest either Cost=8 Money=4, or Cost=10 Money=5.

All in all, some good ideas. Favorites would be Jester, Fealty, Hidden Treasure, Change of Plans, Green Knight, and Early Renaissance.
 
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Joel Fried
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
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Thanks for the feedback. Really appreciate it.

wodan46 wrote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Serf
Place this card in an attacker's discard pile to ignore an attack.
1 coin
Cost: 1
Reaction/Treasure

Make it cost 2. 1 Cost cards are generally to be avoided, and this card is more than powerful enough.


1 points haven't appeared thus far, but I don't know that means they shouldn't. It would add some new strategic options. Considering you lose it to an opponent after 1 use, I don't think powerwise it compares to the 2 pointers.
Quote:

hawkeyeop wrote:

Peasant
+2 Actions
Cost: 2
Action

I've pondered this, but its probably too powerful. I don't think 2 costers should be capable of action multiplying.


Thus far it hasn't proven overly powerful, and unlike the village it can be a detriment if you don't have multiple other actions to play. I made the mistake of buying it with 5/2 setup and it hindered me for most of the game.


Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Plow
Discard any number of cards. If you discard more than two cards, trash this card. At the end of your turn, when you draw five cards, draw that many additional cards.
Cost: 2
Action

Seems overly complicated. Its also way undercosted, since you can often dump things like Estates and Coppers

I'd suggest:
Cost=3, Discard 2 this turn, Draw 2 next turn
Cost=4, Trash this card, Draw 2 next turn


It is meant to be a cellar that instead of giving you cards right away, you get them next turn. It didn't originally have the trash condition, but in initial play testing it was clear that it was too powerful. So I needed to either have it trash upon use or limit the amount of cards gained. My preference was to provide a choice.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Loan Shark
+3 Coins
-1 Victory Point
Cost: 3
Action/Curse

Too strong, even if requires an action to play.


This seems to be the consensus here on this type of card, but I don't agree. Think of it compared to the swindler. You get 1 extra money, but instead of a plus action you get a minus. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Recycle
Choose one of the following, trash a card and draw a card, gain a card from the trash, or choose matching cards from the trash for each other player in the game and place one such card on top of each opponent’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action - Attack

Too strong. Multiple options gives it high utility, the second ability is broken if Swindler is in play, the third ability is ok but problematic.

I'd suggest making it something like
Cost=4: Trash up to 4 cards, then draw as many.


It has multiple options, but that is mostly because often times the 3rd and maybe even 2nd ability isn't usable. It is potent with the swindler, but I don't think it breaks it. I actually think your suggestion is more overpowered. A chapel that doesn't waste a turn to play? That would take care of the chapel's main weakness.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Tournament
+2 Cards
Each player takes a card from their hand and places it face down on the table. Any placed card which has a cost equal to the lowest amongst these cards is trashed. All other cards are returned to their owner's hand.
Cost: 3
Action

I like it. Is similar to a card of my own design, except that mine only affects opponents, and you can take the trashed card. In either case, such cards encourage people to screw each other, as the more people try and protect themselves from trashing, the bigger the loss is if they screw up.

Alternately players can attempt to rid themselves of copper, curses, and estates. It should be quite versatile.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Jester
+1 Coin
+1 Buy
Choose a kingdom or treasure card stack with more cards than players in the game. Place one card from that stack on top of each player’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action

Interesting. I like this card, all sorts of interesting gambits you can pull with it, and you were smart to add a condition that keeps it from emptying stacks. Should probably make it a flat +2 Money though.

You might be right about the money. It is mostly not +2 in order to provide some variety and have another + buy card. It doesn't really make great sense on this card though, so perhaps it can switch it around.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Call to Arms
+2 Coins
Search your discard pile for a knight and put it on top of your deck. If there are no knight cards in your discard, draw a card.
Cost: 4
Action

???

I assume this makes more sense after reading the knights.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Taxes
+1 coin
Reveal any number of victory cards. Plus 1 coin for each victory card revealed.
Cost: 4
Action

Sorry, but this card becomes broken in engine decks, to say nothing of Scouts.

I'd suggest one of the following:
Cost=4: +2 Money, Discard any number of VP cards, +1 Money for each
Cost=4: Discard any number of VP cards, +2 Money for each

I considered requiring the cards be trashed instead of just revealed. Perhaps, I'll just change that part.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Hidden Treasure
Double the value of any one treasure card. This card may be played even if you have no actions remaining.
Cost: 4
Action

Interesting. I think Hoard would probably be a better name. I think you could get away with simply making this a Treasure card itself, but declaring that no Treasure can be targeted more than once


I like your name idea and the idea of making it a treasure card and will use them both.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Diversity
Plus 1 victory point for every 2 unique action cards in your deck.
Cost: 5
Victory

I've seen a variant of this that costs 6, but gives at a 1 to 1 ratio. I prefer that variant over this.


One slight correction, it should read unique kingdom cards and not action cards. The other variant seem a tad overly powerful. I would probably ignore provinces and focus on getting actions if such a card existed.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Spoils
All opponents must reveal their hand. During your buy phase you may choose to buy one card from a revealed hand instead of buying from the table. If you do so, the opponent who lost the card may gain a card costing at most 2 less.
Cost: 5
Action - Attack

Too direct.


What I like about this card is that it allows for comebacks. A decent amount of the time you know the winner late in the game and are just playing out the string. This gives an avenue for the behind player to catch up.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Retreat
Name a card. The first three copies of that card in your discard pile are removed, and added back to their original pile.
Cost: 5
Action

Too much book-keeping.


I don't understand what book-keeping would be required.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Prince
Take any victory point cards in your hand, and put them aside. They are removed from your deck, but still get added to your final point total
Cost: 5
Action

Too strong. Lower the cost, but also set a limit on how many it can target.


Well, it is expensive because it is unlimited. I could be convinced to make it a 4 cost card with say a limit of 2 though.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Advance
Trash a victory card in your hand. Take a victory card that costs up to 3 more and place it on top of your draw pile
Cost: 5
Action

Too weak. Most variants aren't as expensive or brutal.


I originally had it discard the gained card instead of put it on top of discard pile, but it seemed too powerful. Turning duchy's into provinces is very useful, I think the penalty should be harsh.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:

Platinum
4 Coins
Cost: 9
Treasure

I'd suggest either Cost=8 Money=4, or Cost=10 Money=5.


The cost is based on the given progression. 1 costs 0, 2 costs 3, 3 costs 6, so I put 4 at 9.
 
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wodan wodan
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hawkeyeop wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. Really appreciate it.

No problem. Could you take a look at my set? Its been through a lot of changes, but it could still use improvements.

Its located here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/3826375#3826375

hawkeyeop wrote:
1 points haven't appeared thus far, but I don't know that means they shouldn't. It would add some new strategic options. Considering you lose it to an opponent after 1 use, I don't think powerwise it compares to the 2 pointers.

1 Pointers aren't likely to appear.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Thus far it hasn't proven overly powerful, and unlike the village it can be a detriment if you don't have multiple other actions to play. I made the mistake of buying it with 5/2 setup and it hindered me for most of the game.

I suppose its workable. Still feel uneasy about it.


hawkeyeop wrote:

It is meant to be a cellar that instead of giving you cards right away, you get them next turn. It didn't originally have the trash condition, but in initial play testing it was clear that it was too powerful. So I needed to either have it trash upon use or limit the amount of cards gained. My preference was to provide a choice.

Choice is power in this game. Its ability is already extremely strong. The ability to begin turns with larger hands, free of consequence, is well worth sacrificing a turn, and the ability to begin a turn with a very large hand is worth sacrificing a card.


hawkeyeop wrote:

This seems to be the consensus here on this type of card, but I don't agree. Think of it compared to the swindler. You get 1 extra money, but instead of a plus action you get a minus. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

No. There are very few cards that give +3 Money, and they usually are highly conditional at best. Coppersmith needs 3 Copper, Baron needs an Estate, Smithy needs a treasure rich deck, and so on. A mere -1 point is nothing compared to that.


hawkeyeop wrote:

It has multiple options, but that is mostly because often times the 3rd and maybe even 2nd ability isn't usable. It is potent with the swindler, but I don't think it breaks it.

Free provinces and gold.

The first ability is the most thematic, and the most balanced. Perhaps 2-3 cards, or an increase in cost.

hawkeyeop wrote:

Alternately players can attempt to rid themselves of copper, curses, and estates. It should be quite versatile.

You should make it +1 Action, +1 Card. Your deck has only two currently.


hawkeyeop wrote:

I assume this makes more sense after reading the knights.

I don't like set specific cards, and I don't like discard manipulators.



hawkeyeop wrote:

I considered requiring the cards be trashed instead of just revealed. Perhaps, I'll just change that part.

Discard is balanced. Revealing or Trashing isn't.


hawkeyeop wrote:

I like your name idea and the idea of making it a treasure card and will use them both.

Hoard
Pair this with an unpaired Treasure card. If you do, it has value equal to the other Treasure card.
Cost: 4
Treasure
Interesting. I think Hoard would probably be a better name. I think you could get away with simply making this a Treasure card itself, but declaring that no Treasure can be targeted more than once.


hawkeyeop wrote:

One slight correction, it should read unique kingdom cards and not action cards. The other variant seem a tad overly powerful. I would probably ignore provinces and focus on getting actions if such a card existed.

Clarification: The 6 coster is based on unique cards, not multiples, and it only applies to kingdom cards, not treasure/vp cards, and as such wouldn't work on things like Gardens.

hawkeyeop wrote:

What I like about this card is that it allows for comebacks. A decent amount of the time you know the winner late in the game and are just playing out the string. This gives an avenue for the behind player to catch up.

That's the problem with it. The designers indicate they do not want cards to target specific players.

hawkeyeop wrote:

I don't understand what book-keeping would be required.

I don't like discard pile manipulators.


hawkeyeop wrote:

Well, it is expensive because it is unlimited. I could be convinced to make it a 4 cost card with say a limit of 2 though.

I dislike expensive cards with unlimited effects, because that typically means that they will be too weak unless the deck is built around them, in which case they become too strong. Cheap cards with limited effects is much better.


hawkeyeop wrote:

I originally had it discard the gained card instead of put it on top of discard pile, but it seemed too powerful. Turning duchy's into provinces is very useful, I think the penalty should be harsh.

Still, its a 5 coster with no other useful effects that weakens your hand on the next turn.

hawkeyeop wrote:

The cost is based on the given progression. 1 costs 0, 2 costs 3, 3 costs 6, so I put 4 at 9.

That progression probably doesn't need to be followed. Going 0 to 3 cost isn't the same as going from 3 cost to 6 cost, or 6 to 9.
 
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Mason Louie
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mb
It looks like I'm late to the party, but maybe not since it might well be that ppl are still reading this monster thread. Here's my $.02.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Serf
Place this card in an attacker's discard pile to ignore an attack.
1 coin
Cost: 1
Reaction/Treasure

The ability's nice, but I don't think I'd actually buy it unless I was dealing with a Witch table or worse.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Peasant
+2 Actions
Cost: 2
Action

This card feels too weak. If there are very few decent actions available, this card won't get bought.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Plow
Discard any number of cards. If you discard more than two cards, trash this card. At the end of your turn, when you draw five cards, draw that many additional cards.
Cost: 2
Action

I can't decide if this is very powerful or just right. It's very powerful in that, if used sparringly, it's a next-turn-Lab that trashes this turn's action. But at the same time, it's like a one-shot, delayed Cellar without the action which is kinda weak. Which means it's worth a shot.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Loan Shark
+3 Coins
-1 Victory Point
Cost: 3
Action/Curse

It's very very powerful even though it eats up an action. Consider that the only card that gives a consistent +3 coin is Gold.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Recycle
Choose one of the following, trash a card and draw a card, gain a card from the trash, or choose matching cards from the trash for each other player in the game and place one such card on top of each opponent’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action - Attack

This card looks well-thought out. It uses the trash as a supply and as an attack and gives a means of populating the trash. There are two problems I see with it though. First, is that the last choice is too wordy. I'd change it to "Each other player gains a card of the same name from the trash" which implies that there has to be enough of them otherwise the condition fails. Second, it's very very slow at populating the trash if it does so one at a time, so I'd up the trash and draw to at least 2, maybe even 3 for some inter-game trash warring.

I'm tempted to add a 4th option (but that might be too much to cram onto one card), "Each other player trashes the top card of their deck and draws 2 cards."

hawkeyeop wrote:
Tournament
+2 Cards
Each player takes a card from their hand and places it face down on the table. Any placed card which has a cost equal to the lowest amongst these cards is trashed. All other cards are returned to their owner's hand.
Cost: 3
Action

I like this one better than wodan's Annex because it gives the player a choice: do I trash my low cards during early game or do I try forcing my opponents to trash mid cards during mid/late game? What happens if there's a tie?

hawkeyeop wrote:
Jester
+1 Coin
+1 Buy
Choose a kingdom or treasure card stack with more cards than players in the game. Place one card from that stack on top of each player’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action

Actually I like theatog's Town Cryer better because of the more-players-than-cards casethat yours explicity avoid.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Worker Strike
+1 Card
+1 Coin
Name a card. All opponents reveal their hand and discard all copies of the named card. Opponents may draw one card for each card discarded in this manner.
Cost: 4
Action – Attack

This looks pretty brutal, not that that's a necessarily a bad thing, because it can totally shutdown most decks. Vs treasure decks, "Gold". Vs Garden decks, "Ironworks". Vs cycle decks, "Lab". Vs early decks, "Silver". I think this will result in lots of one-legged-ass-kicking-contest sorts of games.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Fealty
+1 Card
Take a copper and put it off to the side. At any time you may choose to put this copper in your hand.
Cost: 4
Action

Interesting, pinch Moneylender. Ditch early Coppers. Then pick them up again during late game for those inevitable 7 coin hands.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Call to Arms
+2 Coins
Search your discard pile for a knight and put it on top of your deck. If there are no knight cards in your discard, draw a card.
Cost: 4
Action

This looks pretty weak even though your knights are OK. Friff wrote up a good set of card design considerations and one of them is don't target specific cards. One repercussion of this wrt this card is what if Call to Arms is picked but no knights are? It becomes an unbought card. And if there are knights available, I'd usually want any other Kingdom card for greater strategy texture.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Taxes
+1 coin
Reveal any number of victory cards. Plus 1 coin for each victory card revealed.
Cost: 4
Action

My feeling is that this is pretty weak. It's a more limited version of Secret Chamber. SC's reaction is pretty good, but I rarely ever use its action ability-- there's almost always a better action to play.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Scorch Earth
Choose a kingdom stack that does not have a curse on top of it. Place a curse on top of the stack. The next player to receive a card from that stack also receives the curse card.
You may gain a card costing up to 3.
Cost: 4
Action

It's a little bit like my Dragon and little bit like theatog's Bandits. It's good in that it cramps must-buy cards like Lab, but it's not fast enough to block Chapel. Unfortunately it doesn't block the standard treasure. And its gain is pretty weak. It's a counterspell-like card with a weak gain.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Hidden Treasure
Double the value of any one treasure card. This card may be played even if you have no actions remaining.
Cost: 4
Action

Treasure Throne Room. Treasure Room? This card would be clearer and more interesting if it was a treasure card.

Treasure Room
Treasure
cost 4
Copy a treasure card in your hand.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Change of Plans
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Take a kingdom card of the same cost and place it in your hand.
Cost: 4
Action

I like it. That Moneylender not looking so shiny? Turn him into a Remodel.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Diversity
Plus 1 victory point for every 2 unique action cards in your deck.
Cost: 5
Victory

I like drukenKOALA's Circus better. It's not a bad idea but it greatly depends on the distribution of actions you play with. Barring Black Markets and the like, this card is worth 4VP tops. For that reason, I wouldn't cost it at 5. 6 maybe, but 4 more likely cause of all the extra work and deck dilution needed to realize.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Spoils
All opponents must reveal their hand. During your buy phase you may choose to buy one card from a revealed hand instead of buying from the table. If you do so, the opponent who lost the card may gain a card costing at most 2 less.
Cost: 5
Action - Attack

I don't like this card for 2 reasons. First, it allows controlled big point swings. Second, it's too much of a targetted attack along the lines Donald draws for attacks, namely you can negotiate and/or gang up on a player in a 3+ player game.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Retreat
Name a card. The first three copies of that card in your discard pile are removed, and added back to their original pile.
Cost: 5
Action

A slow, backdoor Chapel that allows a decent buy? I guess it's OK.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Prince
Take any victory point cards in your hand, and put them aside. They are removed from your deck, but still get added to your final point total
Cost: 5
Action

A more limited version of Dalek's Safe and sort of like wodan's Colonist. I'm not sure where the calibration point for this kind of card is. Although this card might be more fun if you have to play the Prince again to return the set aside victory cards in order to score them. A price to pay for the purifying power and texture for other players to mess with.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Green Knight
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Each other player may discard and draw a card.
Cost: 5
Action

White Knight
+3 Cards
You may discard this card to prevent any attack. If you do so draw a card.
Cost: 5
Action – Reaction

Black Knight
+2 Coins
Each player must reveal their hand and discard the highest cost card. If they have multiple at the same value, they may choose which one.
Cost: 5
Action – Attack

You forgot the Blue & Red Knights to complete the quintumvirate.

Blue Knight
Action
cost 5
+5 cards
Trash a card.
Place a card in your hand on top of a supply pile of your choice.

Red Knight
Action
cost 5
Flip this card into the air. If it lands face up, +5 coin and gain a Copper and a Curse. Otherwise, +2 coin.
Trash the top 2 cards of your deck.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Advance
Trash a victory card in your hand. Take a victory card that costs up to 3 more and place it on top of your draw pile
Cost: 5
Action

Another victory Mine. I think I like wodan's Geographer more because it offers more choices.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Early Renaissance
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal your hand and draw 3 cards, face up, one at a time. Discard any card that matches one in your hand or already played.
Cost: 5
Action

I like it. It enforces deck diversity more strongly than Diversity and Circus. I am a little worried what it does for heavy treasure decks though. Maybe draw 5 cards, but discard any duplicate drawn.

Mid Renaissance
Action
cost 5
+1 action
Reveal your hand and draw 5 cards. Discard each card drawn with the same name as a card in your hand.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Castle
+2 Buys
+3 Gold
Cost: 6
Action

I think this is too much. This one from a player POV strikes me as a no-brainer. Buy 1-2 Gold and a Castle and keep going. I'd change it to +2 coin and cost it at 4, maybe 5 if you don't want to see it bought.

hawkeyeop wrote:
Platinum
4 Coins
Cost: 9
Treasure

I'd raise the price to at least 10.


Re: wodan's comments.

wodan46 wrote:
1 points haven't appeared thus far, but I don't know that means they shouldn't. It would add some new strategic options. Considering you lose it to an opponent after 1 use, I don't think powerwise it compares to the 2 pointers.

I've yet to see any good reason not to have 1 cost cards other than stubborn orthodoxy. OTOH I've yet to come up a good reason to make a 1 cost card since it is very very rare to completely trash all of your cards. And Upgrade is a really lousy reason, so doesn't count. You can sit there all day Upgrading Coppers and Curses into Serfs. I'll buy Provinces in the meantime.

hawkeyeop wrote:
[Loan Shark] This seems to be the consensus here on this type of card, but I don't agree. Think of it compared to the swindler. You get 1 extra money, but instead of a plus action you get a minus. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

1 extra money in this game is a big deal. A Gold's cost is not Silver's cost + 1 even though it only provides 1 extra money. It's Silver's cost + 3. I personally think it's still too cheap because it allows a higher treasure density than a Silver & Copper matchup. It's a big deal when there's the basic 5 card draw rule.

But of course, the true test is the pathological treasure test. If you can't beat a robot treasure deck that integrates this card by some margin subject to your own taste, there will be human players which will mistake it for fun and mimic it simply because it's "optimal". Don't encourage such stupidity.

wodan46 wrote:
[Recycle] Too strong. Multiple options gives it high utility, the second ability is broken if Swindler is in play, the third ability is ok but problematic.

I disagree. A fat Swindle is a rare occurance. Time to pull off a Recycle afterwards is a tall order too. Worrying about such a thing is to miss the beautiful day by hiding from meteors.

hawkeyeop wrote:
[Spoils] What I like about this card is that it allows for comebacks. A decent amount of the time you know the winner late in the game and are just playing out the string. This gives an avenue for the behind player to catch up.

What I don't like about this card is that it also allows blowouts which are more likely because usually the player with the upperhand has a better deck.

wodan46 wrote:
[Loan Shark] No. There are very few cards that give +3 Money, and they usually are highly conditional at best. Coppersmith needs 3 Copper, Baron needs an Estate, Smithy needs a treasure rich deck, and so on. A mere -1 point is nothing compared to that.

Concur. But I'll also point out that you have to play 2 Coppersmiths to do +3 coin with one Copper (which is what makes the card so weak).

That's a lot of cards! Thanks for sharing, especialy in text form.
 
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masonlouie wrote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Tournament
+2 Cards
Each player takes a card from their hand and places it face down on the table. Any placed card which has a cost equal to the lowest amongst these cards is trashed. All other cards are returned to their owner's hand.
Cost: 3
Action

I like this one better than wodan's Annex because it gives the player a choice: do I trash my low cards during early game or do I try forcing my opponents to trash mid cards during mid/late game? What happens if there's a tie?

I agree that it has more versatility than Annex. Tournament is a multipurpose utility card that pits players against each other, while Annex is an attack card that pits opponents against each other. The biggest difference between the two is that his works on 0 cost cards.

masonlouie wrote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Fealty
+1 Card
Take a copper and put it off to the side. At any time you may choose to put this copper in your hand.
Cost: 4
Action

Interesting, pinch Moneylender. Ditch early Coppers. Then pick them up again during late game for those inevitable 7 coin hands.

Good point. When I looked at this, I saw the "save a copper until you need it part", but missed that until then, it effectively trashes your copper.

masonlouie wrote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Taxes
+1 coin
Reveal any number of victory cards. Plus 1 coin for each victory card revealed.
Cost: 4
Action

My feeling is that this is pretty weak. It's a more limited version of Secret Chamber. SC's reaction is pretty good, but I rarely ever use its action ability-- there's almost always a better action to play.

First off, it gives +1 Coin, which means it has a typical yield of 2-3 Money. Second off, it doesn't discard, which is broken. Engine decks have the capacity to put a large portion of their deck into their hand, when they do so, Taxes will be giving 4-8 Money per play.

masonlouie wrote:

Treasure Throne Room. Treasure Room? This card would be clearer and more interesting if it was a treasure card.

Indeed

masonlouie wrote:

I like it. That Moneylender not looking so shiny? Turn him into a Remodel.

Or you could turn it into a Change of Plans.

Also, I suggest you prohibit it from interacting with VP cards. Otherwise, it can be used to empty the Province deck extremely fast, as well as converting other cards into VP cards.

masonlouie wrote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Retreat
Name a card. The first three copies of that card in your discard pile are removed, and added back to their original pile.
Cost: 5
Action

A slow, backdoor Chapel that allows a decent buy? I guess it's OK.

Trading Post is better, I think.

masonlouie wrote:

You forgot the Blue & Red Knights to complete the quintumvirate.


I'd make them something like this:

Blue Knight
Cost=5
Action=+3 Cards
Reaction=If you are attacked, you may reveal this card. The player of the attack must pay 1. If they do not, the attack has no effect and you receive +1 Card.

Dunno about Red Knight, but he should probably be an attack.

masonlouie wrote:

Another victory Mine. I think I like wodan's Geographer more because it offers more choices.

Yes, mine is cheaper, gives +1 Card, and is more flexible, but is balanced specifically because it can't convert Estate->Duchy or Duchy-Province on its own. On the other hand, it can combine your 3 starting Estates into a single Province.


masonlouie wrote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Castle
+2 Buys
+3 Gold
Cost: 6
Action

I think this is too much. This one from a player POV strikes me as a no-brainer. Buy 1-2 Gold and a Castle and keep going. I'd change it to +2 coin and cost it at 4, maybe 5 if you don't want to see it bought.

Are buys really that powerful? Remember that in comparison to Gold, this costs you an action.

masonlouie wrote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Platinum
4 Coins
Cost: 9
Treasure

I'd raise the price to at least 10.

It already costs more than a Province, yet is worth 0 VP. Its cost should be lowered to 8. At cost 10, it should be giving 5 Money.

masonlouie wrote:

Concur. But I'll also point out that you have to play 2 Coppersmiths to do +3 coin with one Copper (which is what makes the card so weak).

You need to play 3 Coppersmiths to get +3 Coin out of a Copper.

Remember, its better to think of Coppersmith as saying: +X money, where X is the number of Coppers you have. Fortunately, you either need 2(for Gardens), 3(for Gold/Nobles/Harem), or 4(for Province), though you generally need Wishing Well/Lab/Nobles to pull off 4 with any level of consistency..
 
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wodan46 wrote:
Or you could turn it into a Change of Plans.

Also, I suggest you prohibit it from interacting with VP cards. Otherwise, it can be used to empty the Province deck extremely fast, as well as converting other cards into VP cards.

It will empty the Province pile even more slowly than a Remodel since you can only exchange equal costs. And I've never thought Remodel's effect on the Province pile (or any other) was very fast.

wodan46 wrote:
masonlouie wrote:
[Retreat]A slow, backdoor Chapel that allows a decent buy? I guess it's OK.

Trading Post is better, I think.

Don't know which one is worse, but if you're comparing it to Trading Post, Retreat's pretty bad.

wodan46 wrote:
masonlouie wrote:
[Castle]I think this is too much. This one from a player POV strikes me as a no-brainer. Buy 1-2 Gold and a Castle and keep going. I'd change it to +2 coin and cost it at 4, maybe 5 if you don't want to see it bought.

Are buys really that powerful? Remember that in comparison to Gold, this costs you an action.

Buys aren't that powerful by themselves, but combined with a consistent +3 coin, they're killer. This card gives a very easy way of snapping up both in one shot. One of the interesting decisions throughout a game is if and when do you buy a card with +buy. If you don't get it early, usually you never get it at all due to opportunity cost. Packing big money with lots of buys removes the extra buy decision which is bad design.

wodan46 wrote:
You need to play 3 Coppersmiths to get +3 Coin out of a Copper.

I think there's a miscommunication here. When I say +3 coin, I mean it gives you three money to spend, not three additional money to the base money. In other words, the plus sign is superfluous. It's a text analog of the how money giving action cards are written like Market and Festival. So Market gives +1 coin (like it says on the card), Festival gives +2 coins, and Gold gives +3 coins (even though it shows up as a plain "3").

 
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masonlouie wrote:
It looks like I'm late to the party, but maybe not since it might well be that ppl are still reading this monster thread. Here's my $.02.


Late? I hope we are just getting started. Thanks for the input.

Quote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Peasant
+2 Actions
Cost: 2
Action

This card feels too weak. If there are very few decent actions available, this card won't get bought.


Sometimes. It is a situational card, but sometimes it will be a lifesaver.

Quote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Recycle
Choose one of the following, trash a card and draw a card, gain a card from the trash, or choose matching cards from the trash for each other player in the game and place one such card on top of each opponent’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action - Attack

This card looks well-thought out. It uses the trash as a supply and as an attack and gives a means of populating the trash. There are two problems I see with it though. First, is that the last choice is too wordy. I'd change it to "Each other player gains a card of the same name from the trash" which implies that there has to be enough of them otherwise the condition fails. Second, it's very very slow at populating the trash if it does so one at a time, so I'd up the trash and draw to at least 2, maybe even 3 for some inter-game trash warring.

I'm tempted to add a 4th option (but that might be too much to cram onto one card), "Each other player trashes the top card of their deck and draws 2 cards."


Good idea on the wording though I think it needs to specify that it is the choice of the player playing the card. I don't really want to make it more complicated by adding a 4th option though. I also think giving it more of a trash ability would make it too powerful.

Quote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Tournament
+2 Cards
Each player takes a card from their hand and places it face down on the table. Any placed card which has a cost equal to the lowest amongst these cards is trashed. All other cards are returned to their owner's hand.
Cost: 3
Action

I like this one better than wodan's Annex because it gives the player a choice: do I trash my low cards during early game or do I try forcing my opponents to trash mid cards during mid/late game? What happens if there's a tie?


In case of a tie all lowest value cards would be trashed.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Jester
+1 Coin
+1 Buy
Choose a kingdom or treasure card stack with more cards than players in the game. Place one card from that stack on top of each player’s discard pile.
Cost: 3
Action

Actually I like theatog's Town Cryer better because of the more-players-than-cards casethat yours explicity avoid.


I didn't want the Jester to be used to directly end the game. It could cause some very short games.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Worker Strike
+1 Card
+1 Coin
Name a card. All opponents reveal their hand and discard all copies of the named card. Opponents may draw one card for each card discarded in this manner.
Cost: 4
Action – Attack

This looks pretty brutal, not that that's a necessarily a bad thing, because it can totally shutdown most decks. Vs treasure decks, "Gold". Vs Garden decks, "Ironworks". Vs cycle decks, "Lab". Vs early decks, "Silver". I think this will result in lots of one-legged-ass-kicking-contest sorts of games.


The opponent's get to redraw so it won't be too painful. But yes, it is one of the cards in this set designed to encourage diversity in decks.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Fealty
+1 Card
Take a copper and put it off to the side. At any time you may choose to put this copper in your hand.
Cost: 4
Action

Interesting, pinch Moneylender. Ditch early Coppers. Then pick them up again during late game for those inevitable 7 coin hands.


I should clarify. The copper gained is from the table and not from your hand. So the good news is you can play fealty without copper, but it doesn't allow you to rid cards from your deck and can in fact end up diluting your deck with copper.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Call to Arms
+2 Coins
Search your discard pile for a knight and put it on top of your deck. If there are no knight cards in your discard, draw a card.
Cost: 4
Action


This looks pretty weak even though your knights are OK. Friff wrote up a good set of card design considerations and one of them is don't target specific cards. One repercussion of this wrt this card is what if Call to Arms is picked but no knights are? It becomes an unbought card. And if there are knights available, I'd usually want any other
Kingdom card for greater strategy texture.


Without knights it is 2 coins, +1 card which isn't a bad card for 4. It might even be better than the knight ability.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Taxes
+1 coin
Reveal any number of victory cards. Plus 1 coin for each victory card revealed.
Cost: 4
Action


My feeling is that this is pretty weak. It's a more limited version of Secret Chamber. SC's reaction is pretty good, but I rarely ever use its action ability-- there's almost always a better action to play.


I love how divergent opinions can be. The original version didn't have the +1 coin, but was +2 per vp. It was pretty clear that it was too powerful like that. I haven't had a chance to test out this new version yet.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Scorch Earth
Choose a kingdom stack that does not have a curse on top of it. Place a curse on top of the stack. The next player to receive a card from that stack also receives the curse card.
You may gain a card costing up to 3.
Cost: 4
Action

It's a little bit like my Dragon and little bit like theatog's Bandits. It's good in that it cramps must-buy cards like Lab, but it's not fast enough to block Chapel. Unfortunately it doesn't block the standard treasure. And its gain is pretty weak. It's a counterspell-like card with a weak gain.


Another correction as I apparently forgot to change the text here. It can be used on any stack, not just kingdom stacks. So it can block victory or treasure cards too.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Diversity
Plus 1 victory point for every 2 unique action cards in your deck.
Cost: 5
Victory

I like drukenKOALA's Circus better. It's not a bad idea but it greatly depends on the distribution of actions you play with. Barring Black Markets and the like, this card is worth 4VP tops. For that reason, I wouldn't cost it at 5. 6 maybe, but 4 more likely cause of all the extra work and deck dilution needed to realize.


One more fix, this should read kingdom card and not action cards. Thus, in a regular game you can get to 5 without the black market. Originally it was priced at 4, but getting lots of different actions didn't dilute a deck anywhere near what getting lots of garden does, so I made it more expensive.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Spoils
All opponents must reveal their hand. During your buy phase you may choose to buy one card from a revealed hand instead of buying from the table. If you do so, the opponent who lost the card may gain a card costing at most 2 less.
Cost: 5
Action - Attack

I don't like this card for 2 reasons. First, it allows controlled big point swings. Second, it's too much of a targetted attack along the lines Donald draws for attacks, namely you can negotiate and/or gang up on a player in a 3+ player game.


It rarely causes huge swings. For example in order to get a province from another player you need to have 8 coins amongst your other cards and an opponent needs to have one in their hand. Even so you can still replace the province with a gold, noble, duchy or any other card which goes directly into your hand. This can give substantial help in replacing the lost province. I understand the 2nd complaint, but I like the card concept, and I can't think of how to change it to avoid that without making it incredibly complicated. For the most part I try to make card's aligned with the creator's vision, but it isn't my #1 driving force.
Quote:

Blue Knight
Action
cost 5
+5 cards
Trash a card.
Place a card in your hand on top of a supply pile of your choice.

Red Knight
Action
cost 5
Flip this card into the air. If it lands face up, +5 coin and gain a Copper and a Curse. Otherwise, +2 coin.
Trash the top 2 cards of your deck.

Well, we need to leave something for the next expansion.

Quote:

hawkeyeop wrote:
Early Renaissance
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal your hand and draw 3 cards, face up, one at a time. Discard any card that matches one in your hand or already played.
Cost: 5
Action

I like it. It enforces deck diversity more strongly than Diversity and Circus. I am a little worried what it does for heavy treasure decks though. Maybe draw 5 cards, but discard any duplicate drawn.

Mid Renaissance
Action
cost 5
+1 action
Reveal your hand and draw 5 cards. Discard each card drawn with the same name as a card in your hand.


5 seems a bit much. All you need to do is hit 2 of 5 for it to equal a Lab. Impossible to chain though, so the question is how valuable would a lab that you couldn't chain be. Your version also would allow you to replace cards you already player, which would give it back some chaining abilitiy.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
Castle
+2 Buys
+3 Gold
Cost: 6
Action

I think this is too much. This one from a player POV strikes me as a no-brainer. Buy 1-2 Gold and a Castle and keep going. I'd change it to +2 coin and cost it at 4, maybe 5 if you don't want to see it bought.


I don't think at 4 points it would ever get bought. Woodcutter is generally considered to be one of the weakest cards in the set, do you really think people's problem is that only has 1 plus buy instead of 2? In it's current form the +3 coins makes plus buys more viable. Occasionally you are going to want the buy, occasionally you are going to want straight gold,and most of the time it won't matter. That seems reasonable to me.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
[Loan Shark] This seems to be the consensus here on this type of card, but I don't agree. Think of it compared to the swindler. You get 1 extra money, but instead of a plus action you get a minus. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

1 extra money in this game is a big deal. A Gold's cost is not Silver's cost + 1 even though it only provides 1 extra money. It's Silver's cost + 3. I personally think it's still too cheap because it allows a higher treasure density than a Silver & Copper matchup. It's a big deal when there's the basic 5 card draw rule.

But of course, the true test is the pathological treasure test. If you can't beat a robot treasure deck that integrates this card by some margin subject to your own taste, there will be human players which will mistake it for fun and mimic it simply because it's "optimal". Don't encourage such stupidity.


Certainly worth a test. I still don't think it is better than Swindler, though one can argue Swindler is undercosted too.

Quote:
hawkeyeop wrote:
[Spoils] What I like about this card is that it allows for comebacks. A decent amount of the time you know the winner late in the game and are just playing out the string. This gives an avenue for the behind player to catch up.

What I don't like about this card is that it also allows blowouts which are more likely because usually the player with the upperhand has a better deck.


I don't really think this will be a major issue. For one the leading player has reason to want the game to end soon, so they would be more likely to buy cards from the table than another player. Also, the winning player is weighted down by the victory cards that he has bought, so he doesn't necessarily have the buying power of the losing player.

Quote:
That's a lot of cards! Thanks for sharing, especialy in text form.


You're welcome!
[/q]
 
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